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From Craig L Russell <craig.russ...@oracle.com>
Subject Re: [VOTE] Shall we adopt the "Defining Hadoop" page
Date Thu, 16 Jun 2011 02:19:08 GMT
Hi Matthew,

I'm sorry I have to disagree.

If you change a bit in a work, it becomes a derived work. There's no  
"demotion" involved. Just a definition of derived work.

There's no ambiguity. Either you ship the bits that the Apache PMC has  
voted on as a release, or you change it (one bit) and it is no longer  
what the PMC has voted on. It's a derived work.

The rules for voting in Apache require that if you change a bit in an  
artifact, you can no longer count votes for the previous artifact.  
Because the new work is different. A new vote is required.

Not gray. Black and white.

Simple as that.


P.S. for the anthropologists, look at the history of Apache Derby and  
Sun JavaDB. Meaningful, specific example.

On Jun 15, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Matthew Foley wrote:

> I tend to agree with what I think you are saying, that
> 	* applying a small-number-of-patches that are
> 	* for high-severity-bug-fixes, and
> 	* have been Apache-Hadoop-committed
> to an Apache Hadoop release should not demote the result to a  
> "derived work".
> However, if so many patches are applied that the result cannot be  
> meaningfully
> correlated with a specific Apache Hadoop release, then it probably has
> become a derived work.
> But how do we draw a meaningful line across that big gray area?   
> That's why I'd like to
> see specific text from one of the other projects you cited as an  
> example.
> Thanks,
> --Matt
> On Jun 15, 2011, at 6:02 PM, Eli Collins wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Matthew Foley <mattf@yahoo- 
> inc.com> wrote:
>> Eli, you said:
>>> Putting a build of Hadoop that has 4 security patches applied into  
>>> the same
>>> category as a product that has entirely re-worked the code and not
>>> gotten it checked into trunk does a major disservice to the people  
>>> who
>>> contribute to and invest in the project.
>> How would you phrase the distinction, so that it is clear and  
>> reasonably unambiguous
>> for people who are not Hadoop developers?  Do the HTTP and  
>> Subversion policies
>> draw this distinction, and if so could you please point us at the  
>> specific text, or
>> copy that text to this thread?
> I'll try to find it, this was told to me verbally a while back. Maybe
> Roy can chime in.
> Since there seems to be some confusion around distribution we should
> make this explicit.  Some people are currently interpreting the
> guidelines to say that if you patch an Apache Hadoop release yourself
> then you're still running Apache Hadoop.  But if a vendor patches
> Apache Hadoop for you then you're not running Apache Hadoop. How about
> if a subcontractor patches Apache Hadoop for you, then is it Apache
> Hadoop? This isn't sustainable.
> Thanks,
> Eli
>> Thanks,
>> --Matt
>> On Jun 15, 2011, at 9:40 AM, Eli Collins wrote:
>> On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Owen O'Malley <omalley@apache.org>  
>> wrote:
>>> On Jun 14, 2011, at 5:48 PM, Eli Collins wrote:
>>>> Wrt derivative works, it's not clear from the document, but I  
>>>> think we
>>>> should explicitly adopt the policy of HTTPD and Subversion that
>>>> backported patches from trunk and security fixes are permitted.
>>> Actually, the document is extremely clear that only Apache  
>>> releases may be called Hadoop.
>>> There was a very long thread about why the rapidly expanding  
>>> Hadoop-ecosystem is leading to at lot of customer confusion about  
>>> the different "versions" of Hadoop. We as the Hadoop project don't  
>>> have the resources or the necessary compatibility test suite to  
>>> test compatibility between the different sets of cherry picked  
>>> patches. We also don't have time to ensure that all of the 1,000's  
>>> of patches applied to 0.20.2 in each of the many (10? 15?)  
>>> different versions have been committed to trunk. Futhermore, under  
>>> the Apache license, a company Foo could claim that it is a cherry  
>>> pick version of Hadoop without releasing their source code that  
>>> would enable verification.
>>> In summary,
>>> 1. Hadoop is very successful.
>>> 2. There are many different commercial products that are trying to  
>>> use the Hadoop name.
>>> 3. We can't check or enforce that the cherry pick versions are  
>>> following the rules.
>>> 4. We don't have a TCK like Java does to validate new versions are  
>>> compatible.
>>> 5. By far the most fair way to ensure compatibility and fairness  
>>> between companies is that only Apache Hadoop releases may be  
>>> called Hadoop.
>>> That said, a package that includes a small number (< 3) of  
>>> security patches that haven't been released yet doesn't seem  
>>> unreasonable.
>> I've spoken with ops teams at many companies,  I am not aware of
>> anyone who runs an official release (with just 2 security patches).  
>> By
>> this definition many of the most valuable contributors to Hadoop,
>> including Yahoo!, Cloudera, Facebook, etc are not using Hadoop.  Is
>> that really the message we want to send? We expect the PMC to enforce
>> this equally across all parties?
>> It's a fact of life that companies and ops teams that support Hadoop
>> need to patch the software before the PMC has time and/or will to  
>> vote
>> on new releases. This is why HTTP and Subversion allow this.  
>> Putting a
>> build of Hadoop that has 4 security patches applied into the same
>> category as a product that has entirely re-worked the code and not
>> gotten it checked into trunk does a major disservice to the people  
>> who
>> contribute to and invest in the project.
>> Thanks,
>> Eli

Craig L Russell
Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
Chair, OpenJPA PMC
clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo

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