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From "Segel, Mike" <mse...@navteq.com>
Subject Re: Defining Hadoop Compatibility -revisiting-
Date Tue, 17 May 2011 01:50:47 GMT
Let me clarify...
I searched on Hadoop as a term in any TM. 
Nothing came back...

This means that Apache Hadoop didn't show up.

Note the following: I did the basic search. I wouldn't be surprised that someone from Apache
comes back and says see TM xxxxxxxx ...

-Mike

Sent from a remote device. Please excuse any typos...

Mike Segel

On May 16, 2011, at 8:12 PM, Scott Carey <scott@richrelevance.com> wrote:

> On trademarks, what about the phrase:  "New distribution for Apache
> Hadoop"?  I've seen that used, and its something that replaces most of the
> stack.  I believe "Apache Hadoop" is trademarked in this context, even if
> Hadoop alone isn't.
> "Compatible with Apache Hadoop" is a smaller issue, defining some rough
> guidelines for various forms of compatibility is useful for the community
> (and reputable vendors), abuse of that will at least become obvious.  But
> "distribution for Apache Hadoop" (not too sure what 'for' means here)?  Is
> there any TM protection?  A proprietary derivative work with most of the
> guts replaced is not an Apache Hadoop distribution, nor a distribution for
> Apache Hadoop.
> 
> On 5/16/11 5:40 PM, "Segel, Mike" <msegel@navteq.com> wrote:
> 
>> I just checked... TESS said no trademarks for Hadoop.
>> So... what TM protection? :-)
>> 
>> You are correct about derivative works. It's a moot point as long as the
>> derivative work follows the T&Cs...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from a remote device. Please excuse any typos...
>> 
>> Mike Segel
>> 
>> On May 16, 2011, at 4:18 PM, "Matthew Foley" <mattf@yahoo-inc.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> It's important to distinguish between the name "Hadoop", which is
>>> protected by trademark law,
>>> and the Hadoop implementation, which is licensed as opensource under
>>> copyright law.
>>> 
>>> The term "derivative work" is, I believe, only relevant under copyright
>>> law, not trademark law.
>>> (N.B., I'm not a lawyer -- and this email is my opinion, not my
>>> employer's.)  Since the Apache License
>>> explicitly allows derivative works, I don't think it's a useful term
>>> for this discussion.
>>> 
>>> However, the ASF, and by delegation the Hadoop PMC, has a lot of
>>> control over the name,
>>> and how we allow it to be used, under trademark law.  But to keeps our
>>> rights under that
>>> law, we have to enforce the trademark consistently.  So it's good that
>>> we're having this discussion,
>>> and it's important to reach a conclusion, document it, and enforce it
>>> consistently.
>>> 
>>> There are a lot of subtleties; for instance, if I recall correctly from
>>> my days with Adobe and
>>> PostScript(R), someone who has not licensed a trademark "X" can still
>>> claim "compatible with X"
>>> as long as they ALSO make clear that the product is NOT, itself, an
>>> "X".  But you really need
>>> a lawyer to get into that stuff.
>>> 
>>> --Matt
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On May 16, 2011, at 5:00 AM, Segel, Mike wrote:
>>> 
>>> But Cloudera's release is a bit murky.
>>> 
>>> The math example is a bit flawed...
>>> 
>>> X represents the set of stable releases.
>>> Y represents the set of available patches.
>>> C represents the set of Cloudera releases.
>>> 
>>> So if C contains a release X(n) plus a set of patches that is contained
>>> in Y,
>>> Then does it not have the right to be considered Apache Hadoop?
>>> It's my understanding is that any enhancement to Hadoop is made
>>> available to Apache and will eventually make it into a later release...
>>> 
>>> So while it may not be 'official' release X(z), all of it's components
>>> are in Apache.
>>> (note: I'm talking about the core components and not Cloudera's
>>> additional toolsets that encompass Hadoop.)
>>> 
>>> Cloudera is clearly a derivative work.
>>> And IMHO is the only one which can say ... 'Includes Apache Hadoop'.
>>> 
>>> That doesn't mean that others can't, depending on how they implemented
>>> their changes.
>>> Based on EMC marketing material, they've done a rip and replace of HDFS.
>>> So it wouldn't be a superset since it doesn't contain a complete
>>> subset, but contains code that implements the API... So they can't say
>>> 'Includes Apache Hadoop',but they can say it's a derivative work based
>>> on Apache Hadoop and then go on to show how and why, in their opinion
>>> their product is better.(that's marketing for you...)
>>> 
>>> Clearly there are others out there...
>>> Hadoop on Cassandra as an example...
>>> 
>>> Fragmentation of Hadoop will occur. It's inevitable. Too much money is
>>> on the table...
>>> 
>>> But because Apache's licensing is so open, Apache will have a hard time
>>> controlling derivative works...
>>> I believe that Steve is incorrect in his assertion concerning potential
>>> loss of any patent protection. Again Apache's licensing is very open and
>>> as long as they follow Apache's Ts and Cs, they are covered.
>>> 
>>> Note: because I am sending this from my email address at my client, I
>>> am obliged to say that this email is my opinion and does not reflect on
>>> the opinion of my client...
>>> (you know the rest....)
>>> 
>>> Sent from a remote device. Please excuse any typos...
>>> 
>>> Mike Segel
>>> 
>>> On May 16, 2011, at 6:02 AM, "Steve Loughran"
>>> <stevel@apache.org<mailto:stevel@apache.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 13/05/11 23:57, Allen Wittenauer wrote:
>>> 
>>> On May 13, 2011, at 3:53 PM, Ted Dunning wrote:
>>> 
>>> But "distribution Z includes X" kind of implies the existence of some
>>> such
>>> that X != Y, Y != empty-set and X+Y = Z, at least in common usage.
>>> 
>>> Isn't that the same as a non-trunk change?
>>> 
>>> So doesn't this mean that your question reduces to the question of what
>>> happens when non-Apache changes are made to an Apache release?  And
>>> isn't
>>> that the definition of a derived work?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Yup. Which is why I doubt *any* commercial entity can claim "includes
>>> Apache Hadoop" (including Cloudera).
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> but they can claim it is a derivative work, which CDH clearly is,
>>> (Though if we were to come up with a formal declaration of what a
>>> derivative work is, we'd have to handle the fact that it is a superset.
>>> Even worse, you may realise a release is the ordered application of a
>>> sequence of patches, and if the patches are applied in a different order
>>> you may end up with a different body of source code...)
>>> 
>>> Something that implements the APIs may not be a derivative work,
>>> depending on how much of the original code is in there. You could look
>>> at the base classes and interfaces and produce a clean room
>>> implementation (relying on the notion that interfaces are a list of
>>> facts and not copyrightable in the US), but whoever does that may
>>> encounter the issue that Google's donation of the right to use their MR
>>> patent may not apply to such implementations.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The information contained in this communication may be CONFIDENTIAL and
>>> is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above.  If you
>>> are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
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>>> its contents, is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this
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>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The information contained in this communication may be CONFIDENTIAL and
>> is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above.  If you are
>> not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
>> dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication, or any of
>> its contents, is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this
>> communication in error, please notify the sender and delete/destroy the
>> original message and any copy of it from your computer or paper files.
> 


The information contained in this communication may be CONFIDENTIAL and is intended only for
the use of the recipient(s) named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication, or any of
its contents, is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication in error, please
notify the sender and delete/destroy the original message and any copy of it from your computer
or paper files.

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