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From Bernd Fondermann <bernd.fonderm...@googlemail.com>
Subject Re: ZooKeeper as TLP discussion results.
Date Thu, 08 Apr 2010 08:41:54 GMT
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 21:00, Doug Cutting <cutting@apache.org> wrote:
> Patrick Hunt wrote:
>>
>> Please find the results of the ZooKeeper as TLP discussion here.
>>
>> http://bit.ly/c4fuZT
>>
>> There was consensus amongst the development team that we will stay as a
>> subproject of Hadoop for the time being. Full details of the discussion can
>> be found in the thread provided.
>
> In that discussion you state:
>> a) I do not think ZooKeeper currently has a sufficiently large and
>> diverse enough community such that it can fend for itself as a
>> TLP
>
> How does the Hadoop PMC assist Zookeeper?  I see very little evidence that
> the Hadoop PMC is involved at all day-to-day operations of Zookeeper.
>  Currently the Hadoop PMC must vote on new Zookeeper committers and
> releases.  These votes usually pass with the minimum required number of PMC
> votes, often only after an appeal is made for more votes.  This does not
> seem like significant oversight.  Beyond that, I see little evidence of
> involvement by the Hadoop PMC in Zookeeper.  So I don't see this as a strong
> argument not to become a TLP.
>
> If a group of committers is operating independently, then they ought to be
> an independent TLP.  The fact that you're a subproject operating
> independently only hides the lack of diversity, it doesn't help it.
>
>> b) Loss of branding and discover-ability
>
> This also seems a poor reason to remain a sub-project.  We can retain
> prominent links to Zookeeper from hadoop.apache.org regardless of how the
> projects are structured.
>
>> c) "if ain't broke don't fix it". I have frequent interactions with
>> Hadoop PMC/Chair and an Apache board member.
>
> That should not change as a TLP.  Apache encourages cross-project
> communication and collaboration.
>
> The things that would change if Zookeeper were a TLP are:
>  1. its official website would be at zookeeper.apache.org.
>  2. it could vote for committers and releases directly rather than through
> the Hadoop PMC
>  3. it would submit its quarterly report to the board directly, instead of
> via the Hadoop PMC.
>
> That's pretty much it.
>
> The board has a well established report and review system.  Each project's
> quarterly report is closely read and must be individually approved by a
> quorum of the board's members.  PMCs tend not to have such a review
> mechanism for subprojects.  Historically subprojects that develop problems
> have been slow to identify, and the problems have worsened in the meantime.
>  The focus of each PMC should be on direct decisions about code, committers
> and releases.  The board's job is to make sure that each PMC operates
> effectively.  These are different responsibilities and require different
> processes.
>
> No one is going to force Zookeeper to become a TLP against its will, and no
> change must be made immediately.  But I think such a move would be easy to
> make, have significant upside for the project in simplifying its formal
> votes, and have significant upside to the foundation in facilitating the
> project's direct interaction with the board.
>
> Doug

+1 to all of this.

Additional comments.
If there would be 3 Zookeeper committers on the Hadoop PMC, then the
lack-of-oversight problem would go away and releases could be voted on
without delay.
I don't want to discuss why this currently is like it is - this should
really be discussed on private@hadoop.a.o.

However, going TLP requires experienced people. That means Zookeeper
will probably need Hadoop PMC members or others (ASF members, etc) to
join the initial PMC.
Otherwise, in my opinion the proper path could either be Zookeeper
growing up here for a while until a proper PMC can be forked from
Hadoop, or going through - hold your breath - incubation.

You know, this whole umbrella discussion should not result in a mass
exodus into TLPs which might collapse sooner or later.

   Bernd

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