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From "Adam R. B. Jack" <aj...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [rant] I hate this gump
Date Mon, 04 Oct 2004 02:17:13 GMT
> Example:
>
> http://brutus.apache.org/gump/public/cocoon-2.1/index.html
>
> look at what it says:
>
>   "SUCCESS"
> success at what? at finding problems? then it says "overall project
> success 18%". WTF? what is the measure of success for gump, anything
> higher than zero?

True, likely misleading. This is a module and it checked out so it is
"success" at the module level.

> So, we clearly have a problem and I try to fix it. I take the 'cocoon'
> module because is the root of the dependencies (obviously *I* know that,
> stupid gump doesn't tell me that, even if it knows)
>
> http://brutus.apache.org/gump/public/cocoon-2.1/cocoon/index.html
>
> no such project "avalon-framework". What? It has been there *FOREVER*...
> oh, yeah, it's the "we love our users" anthem we hear from avalon every
> day [we are fixing that one in another area, but it should be fixed soon]

I think It got renamed w/o some alias. Yeah, kinda tough on dependees.

> So, I go looking for the new name of the avalon framework... hmmm...
> where do I go? I look up: run? no workspace? yeah, that shoudl have
> it... no, it's useless crap, back, where is the list of the goddamn
> projects... hmmm, maybe log? all right
>
> Oh *fuck* "gump is currently building, blah blah blah"

Yup, that has been pissing me off big time recently. But, I've come to agree
... I'd hate to write yet another static page, they have to go.

> Boy, this gump sucks.
>
> Gump needs to be a two tier system: one system drives the build and
> generates data, pumps it into a database and another tier (possibly a
> webapp) drives the presentation layer accessing that data.

You and I stated this on an IM once. I agree completely. I also can't stand
the static pages, and I wrote them. The static pages were there because of
Forrest, partly historically, and that just slipped into XHTML, and stayed
there. As you've stated, they try to tell you everything, and there is
simply no intelligence. To attempt to be complete they overload the user
with data [that is, at times, misleading], and as such the obscure the
important facts.

I'd love to see you go for this.

Gump writes to MySQL, the data is there (albeit in somewhat ugly/simplistic
a schema) so feel free to dig into it. Let me know if you need anything
else. [BTW: Did Leo give you the PHP MySQL admin pages/login?]

I half wonder if we could also write some information into an RDF tuple
database for a webapp to query/display, but that can be a phase two (if
needed).

> Yes, I'm going to do something about it myself and you can bet your ass
> that the webapp will *NOT* be written in python.

No complaints from me. Python is a fine language, but I think:

(1) the Gump code uses (for want of a better word) "fragmented" classes
which are hard to form a mental picture from. I was trying to employ
multiple inheritance and re-use, but think I unintentionally obscured.

(2) I don't think Python is giving us the benefit it could, not necessarily
'cos of the language, more 'cos of the IDEs. I think Gump is large enough
that folks can't "navigate" around it, so get lost, when really the core
(wherever that is) is tiny and simple.

I do hope to keep finding ways to simplify Gump's code so that Python is not
a barrier to entry, but I'm more than happy to help work with alternatives.

regards,

Adam


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