From users-return-3288-archive-asf-public=cust-asf.ponee.io@groovy.apache.org Mon Feb 26 09:32:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Delivered-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by mx-eu-01.ponee.io (Postfix) with SMTP id 6128018064A for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:32:51 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 37186 invoked by uid 500); 26 Feb 2018 08:32:50 -0000 Mailing-List: contact users-help@groovy.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: users@groovy.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list users@groovy.apache.org Received: (qmail 37176 invoked by uid 99); 26 Feb 2018 08:32:50 -0000 Received: from pnap-us-west-generic-nat.apache.org (HELO spamd2-us-west.apache.org) (209.188.14.142) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:32:50 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spamd2-us-west.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at spamd2-us-west.apache.org) with ESMTP id C1B0C1A03E7 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:32:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at spamd2-us-west.apache.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.211 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.211 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URI_HEX=1.313] autolearn=disabled Authentication-Results: spamd2-us-west.apache.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mx1-lw-us.apache.org ([10.40.0.8]) by localhost (spamd2-us-west.apache.org [10.40.0.9]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SMME3_NN6GIf for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:32:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-io0-f175.google.com (mail-io0-f175.google.com [209.85.223.175]) by mx1-lw-us.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at mx1-lw-us.apache.org) with ESMTPS id 79E235F1E7 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:32:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-io0-f175.google.com with SMTP id q24so9046538ioh.8 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 00:32:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WWbtEpqY/kOmvJKdbsvXh5da0Bu/hTgSMox8LrKNGUg=; b=ie61ijvWRr2g9xQ+p5bjLxSbe9beNJvZOmiwmOQTFuXl5Nh1rgwC4MVtDKV+s280J2 lPnuxbXwFNe/EuWxoVKyGGQ+Gw52VRMU2sJgeAjlchaAzgvbDM1ykDwUmhdAyn5MtYIW zxEKHC8GgJ/wQ9IhWI7I/N2IujS9SRM0nsAOQs7wlsq1GgTfzDGpwuNpLPijf7JbctSK L/NFc9mFWamHGq+eYZordTkrTj8zh5OWqcOE2PKZar1aoGtikDBHK1TZrD0zt0PunQwl ZFRTdaYU9cI9BfI65evZVRT6slNWM3+DqanJroCaEc/e+F0dTmqYtuAb1qgcjHKeWI8/ lrzw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WWbtEpqY/kOmvJKdbsvXh5da0Bu/hTgSMox8LrKNGUg=; b=TSDAVf2r0pGx+qyOSK8SlXoyuMTU2wOFJ/WVgHSg3ZGT6Al6SIT4R2m5EIdbequwB6 zmh9uBMmzspfcrtUlH/xhetg3t2upazATkf3Bn43CDNi7+4JV7iDpW0Zlxqlqh4PJivd NhUi5dvmUqo+2gl6qUxF4+ZYj50Rl2AfLtQAZSch35Go/CFPz+sExsaAMOEcgU++Uwd1 wxrMI56U2HstlGg0BMeV96NO9kXZKuamv7cfvV9TlnkBo/dI+LAyvpjGiASHZwa3DwjZ mqEmoBsA4oWxqNYlC/UtIGU3Brhz8antuPn7ObB10f1l/JlL5Bw8dmjleaMu0YhhSwqV TC/w== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPD2JAQKyUoR3ibk6lvvn+6VHSNOJESHw6i3yHF0BjtmVciRo1P8 FmGzsCrK0WlGE2iJH/qkmMRv3Bd3/IjvXVv3z2L2Ag== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELs7855dWSMgqBnaaw9S0IpBA4eBOxp2lfxZMRHXYl8DctvH/hXOWqexZa2DfT5WKG4QpO0FvxLhRMDf+02b/Cs= X-Received: by 10.107.6.29 with SMTP id 29mr11367216iog.24.1519633960106; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 00:32:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.165.1 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 00:32:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <286B5C90-EE24-49CB-AB09-976B67F7645A@canoo.com> <5196c83c-24b9-77ec-159a-cb05a9dce432@arscreat.com> <1519550776040-0.post@n5.nabble.com> From: Guillaume Laforge Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:32:39 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Groovy Champions proposal feedback To: users@groovy.apache.org Cc: Paul King Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113f9bd46182b60566195a61" --001a113f9bd46182b60566195a61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 9:24 AM, C=C3=A9dric Champeau wrote: > I think it would be valuable to add a few examples of profiles who might > be entitled Groovy champion. Let me start: > > - a speaker, teacher who by their public talks contributed to the > awareness of the language > For example someone like Venkat, who spoke early about Groovy, and keeps doing so. Or people like Dan Vega who run online Groovy courses. Both would be good candidates under that label. > - the author of a successful framework who, by leveraging Groovy, > introduced innovative features > Somewhat a bit remote to the Groovy community like Koshuke, from Jenkins, has extended Jenkins in nice ways thanks to Groovy. So yes, those two categories fall very well in the realm of our champion program IMHO. We should indeed perhaps list a few of those categories when describing the program and specifying who can be elected or not. Guillaume > > 2018-02-26 9:17 GMT+01:00 Paul King : > >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 5:55 PM, S=C3=B8ren Berg Glasius >> wrote: >> >>> @Mario >>> >>> Very good thoughts, I really like the idea that an award is permanent, = I >>> believe that goes for Java Champs as well. >>> >>> Naming wise, Groovyssimo is fun, but not naming material for an award >>> :-) But we need to narrow down the name-space to something realistic th= at >>> can be voted on. >>> >> >> Agreed on the good thoughts comment. Well, I guess you are going to rule >> out my spin on Nobel with the No-semis award idea too! :-) >> >> No-semis jokes aside, we have been given feedback from within Apache tha= t >> we have to make sure that we cover off whatever we do in terms of Apache >> branding, making sure that the trademark Apache Groovy is honored and th= at >> such a scheme could never head down a path that would be in conflict wit= h >> the ASF directions. Also, as C=C3=A9dric mentions we need to make a case= why >> existing schemes like "committer status" or "PMC status" might not apply= . I >> agree with Guillaume that the idea of the award has always been for the >> entire ecosystem and the existing mechanisms for recognizing contributio= ns >> to the Apacge Groovy project don't really apply well in the broader >> community context. Much like the ASF itself has different kinds of award= s, >> e.g. member of the ASF vs committer/PMC for a particular project, I thin= k a >> different award is needed here. >> >> Cheers, Paul. >> >> On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 at 08:50 Mario Garcia wrote: >>> >>>> +1 to what Guillaume said :) Common guys! Lets focus on what we think >>>> is a great language and let others think what they want! >>>> >>>> Regarding the duration of the award. I've though about it, trying not >>>> to think in terms of annually or permanent, but trying to see what's o= ut >>>> there outside the CS world, and I ended up thinking on the Nobel prize= . I'd >>>> like some ideas of Nobel prize: >>>> >>>> - Takes place every year >>>> - A given prize could be vacant a given year. >>>> - It's so important that it's really noticeable to be awarded >>>> - Makes people very proud of some achievement they did a given year >>>> - Once you're a Nobel you will always be a Nobel. >>>> - Of course there's been awarded people that even rejected the >>>> prize but that never really underrated the prize overtime >>>> - New members are chosen by previous members and some other >>>> relevant people (members of the parliament among others). Here I'd = add >>>> the idea of letting anybody to propose a nominee, but leaving the f= inal >>>> decision to the prize committee (whatever we decide who is in) >>>> >>>> Despite the difference of content between the Nobel prize and the >>>> Groovy awards, after reviewing these points I think they seem to fit b= etter >>>> in the Groovy Champions/Stars idea. There is also something I haven't = heard >>>> yet. I guess this will require a kind of permanent organization, e.g. = to >>>> contact members, nominees, organize the awards, a web to show the >>>> winners...etc >>>> >>>> BTW: Here you have another naming for the awards: Groovisimo Awards. >>>> Can you imaging a "Groovisimo" statue like the Oscars ? It would be a = blast >>>> XDDDD >>>> >>>> My two cents >>>> Mario >>>> >>>> 2018-02-25 10:53 GMT+01:00 Guillaume Laforge : >>>> >>>>> James Stachan's quote has really been taken out of context, and >>>>> over-exagerated bu the Scala-fanboys. >>>>> If Scala had been what it is now, James would probably not have >>>>> initiated Groovy *then*. But Scala was nascent just like Groovy *then= *. >>>>> It's like if Gavin King had said that he wouldn't have invented >>>>> Hibernate if JPA had existed... but JPA came ten years later. >>>>> >>>>> This quote was really harmful, but as the saying goes, lots of water'= s >>>>> gone through the bridges since then. >>>>> >>>>> There's still the myth of slowliness, which we all know is not true >>>>> anymore, even in pure dynamic mode (without even mentioning static >>>>> compilation) >>>>> Usually, you spend way more time in network latency (access to remote >>>>> resources, access to database, etc) than waiting for the CPU spent by= just >>>>> the pure language execution time. >>>>> >>>>> Also back on James Strachan: he went to play with Scala, then with >>>>> Kotlin, and has come back to using Groovy. >>>>> He's using Groovy on a regular basis through his work with Jenkins, >>>>> its pipelines, etc. >>>>> So he's back at his old love! >>>>> >>>>> So let's turn the page on those stories, please. >>>>> >>>>> Guillaume >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 10:26 AM, Daniel Sun >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The creator of Groovy said "I can honestly say if someone had shown >>>>>> me the >>>>>> Programming in Scala book...". I think he compared Scala with the ol= d >>>>>> version of Groovy he created in about 2003. As we all know, Groovy h= as >>>>>> evolved a lot, so I never care about others' out-dated opinions on >>>>>> Groovy :) >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Daniel.Sun >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Sent from: http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble >>>>>> .com/Groovy-Users-f329450.html >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Guillaume Laforge >>>>> Apache Groovy committer & PMC Vice-President >>>>> Developer Advocate @ Google Cloud Platform >>>>> >>>>> Blog: http://glaforge.appspot.com/ >>>>> Social: @glaforge / Google+ >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> Best regards / Med venlig hilsen, >>> S=C3=B8ren Berg Glasius >>> >>> Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark >>> Mobile: +45 40 44 91 88 <+45%2040%2044%2091%2088>, Skype: sbglasius >>> --- Press ESC once to quit - twice to save the changes. >>> >> >> > --=20 Guillaume Laforge Apache Groovy committer & PMC Vice-President Developer Advocate @ Google Cloud Platform Blog: http://glaforge.appspot.com/ Social: @glaforge / Google+ --001a113f9bd46182b60566195a61 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 9:24 AM, C=C3=A9dric Champeau <= ;cedric.cham= peau@gmail.com> wrote:
I think it would be valuable to add a few examples o= f profiles who might be entitled Groovy champion. Let me start:

- a speaker, teacher who by their public talks contributed to the awarene= ss of the language

For exam= ple someone like Venkat, who spoke early about Groovy, and keeps doing so.<= /div>
Or people like Dan Vega who run online Groovy courses.
= Both would be good candidates under that label.
=C2=A0
- the author of a suc= cessful framework who, by leveraging Groovy, introduced innovative features=

Somewhat a bit remote to the Gro= ovy community like Koshuke, from Jenkins, has extended Jenkins in nice ways= thanks to Groovy.

So yes, those two categories fa= ll very well in the realm of our champion program IMHO.

We should indeed perhaps list a few of those categories when describi= ng the program and specifying who can be elected or not.

Guillaume
=C2=A0

2018-02-26 9:17 GMT+01:00 Paul Kin= g <paulk@asert.com.au>:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 5:55 PM, S=C3=B8ren Berg Glasius <soeren@= glasius.dk> wrote:
@Mario=C2=A0

Very good thoug= hts, I really like the idea that an award is permanent, I believe that goes= for Java Champs as well.

Naming wise, Groovyssimo= is fun, but not naming material for an award :-) But we need to narrow dow= n the name-space to something realistic that can be voted on.

Agreed on the good thoughts comment. = Well, I guess you are going to rule out my spin on Nobel with the No-semis = award idea too! :-)
=C2=A0
No-semis jokes aside, we hav= e been given feedback from within Apache that we have to make sure that we = cover off whatever we do in terms of Apache branding, making sure that the = trademark Apache Groovy is honored and that such a scheme could never head = down a path that would be in conflict with the ASF directions. Also, as=C2= =A0C=C3=A9dric mentions we need to make a case why existing schemes like &q= uot;committer status" or "PMC status" might not apply. I agr= ee with Guillaume that the idea of the award has always been for the entire= ecosystem and the existing mechanisms for recognizing contributions to the= Apacge Groovy project don't really apply well in the broader community= context. Much like the ASF itself has different kinds of awards, e.g. memb= er of the ASF vs committer/PMC for a particular project, I think a differen= t award is needed here.

Cheers, Paul.

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 at= 08:50 Mario Garcia <mario.ggar@gmail.com> wrote:
+1 to what Guillaume said :) Co= mmon guys! Lets focus on what we think is a great language and let others t= hink what they want!=C2=A0

Regarding the duration of the= award. I've though about it, trying not to think in terms of annually = or permanent, but trying to see what's out there outside the CS world, = and I ended up thinking on the Nobel prize. I'd like some ideas of Nobe= l prize:
  • Takes place every year
  • A given prize= could be vacant a given year.=C2=A0
  • It's so important that= it's really noticeable to be awarded
  • Makes people very pro= ud of some achievement they did a given year
  • Once you're a = Nobel you will always be a Nobel.
  • Of=C2=A0 course there's been = awarded people that even rejected the prize but that never really underrate= d the prize overtime=C2=A0
  • New members are chosen by previous membe= rs and some other relevant people (members of the parliament among others).= Here I'd=C2=A0add the idea of letting anybod= y to propose a nominee, but leaving the final decision to the prize committ= ee (whatever we decide who is in)
Despite the di= fference of content between the Nobel prize and the Groovy awards, after re= viewing these points I think they seem to fit better in the Groovy Champion= s/Stars idea. There is also something I haven't heard yet. I guess this= will require a kind of permanent organization, e.g. to contact members, no= minees, organize the awards, a web to show the winners...etc

=
BTW: Here you have another naming for the awards: Groovisimo Awa= rds. Can you imaging a "Groovisimo" statue like the Oscars ? It w= ould be a blast XDDDD=C2=A0=C2=A0

My two cents
Mario
<= br>
2018-02-25 10:53 GMT+01:00 Guillaume Laforge = <glaforge@gmail.com>:
James Stachan's quote has really been = taken out of context, and over-exagerated bu the Scala-fanboys.
If Scal= a had been what it is now, James would probably not have initiated Groovy *= then*. But Scala was nascent just like Groovy *then*.
It's li= ke if Gavin King had said that he wouldn't have invented Hibernate if J= PA had existed... but JPA came ten years later.

Th= is quote was really harmful, but as the saying goes, lots of water's go= ne through the bridges since then.

There's sti= ll the myth of slowliness, which we all know is not true anymore, even in p= ure dynamic mode (without even mentioning static compilation)=C2=A0
Usually, you spend way more time in network latency (access to remote re= sources, access to database, etc) than waiting for the CPU spent by just th= e pure language execution time.

Also back on James= Strachan: he went to play with Scala, then with Kotlin, and has come back = to using Groovy.
He's using Groovy on a regular basis through= his work with Jenkins, its pipelines, etc.
So he's back at h= is old love!

So let's turn the page on those s= tories, please.

Guillaume

<= /div>
On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 10:26 AM, Daniel Sun <realbluesun@hotmail.com> wrote:
The creator of Groovy said "I can honest= ly say if someone had shown me the
Programming in Scala book...". I think he compared Scala with the old<= br> version of Groovy he created in about 2003. As we all know, Groovy has
evolved a lot, so I never care about others' out-dated opinions on Groo= vy :)

Cheers,
Daniel.Sun



--
Sent from: http://groovy.329449.n5.nabbl= e.com/Groovy-Users-f329450.html



<= /div>--
<= div>
Guillaume LaforgeApache Groovy committer & PMC Vice-President
Dev= eloper Advocate @ Google Cloud Platform

Blog:=C2=A0<= a href=3D"http://glaforge.appspot.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://glaforge.a= ppspot.com/
Social: @glaforge=C2=A0/ Google+

--
Best regards / Med venlig hilsen,
S=C3=B8ren Berg G= lasius

Hedevej 1, Gl. Rye, 8680 Ry, Denmark
<= div>Mobile: +45 40 44 91 88, Skype: sbglasius
--- Press = ESC once to quit - twice to save the changes.





--
=
=
Guillaume Laforge
Apache Groovy commit= ter & PMC Vice-President
Developer Advocate @ Goo= gle Cloud Platform

Blog:=C2=A0http://glaforge.appspot.com/
<= div>Social: @glaf= orge=C2=A0/ Google+
<= /div>
--001a113f9bd46182b60566195a61--