From dev-return-5970-archive-asf-public=cust-asf.ponee.io@groovy.apache.org Sun Mar 24 20:46:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Delivered-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by mx-eu-01.ponee.io (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B4E618065B for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2019 21:46:21 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 75832 invoked by uid 500); 24 Mar 2019 20:46:20 -0000 Mailing-List: contact dev-help@groovy.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: dev@groovy.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list dev@groovy.apache.org Received: (qmail 75822 invoked by uid 99); 24 Mar 2019 20:46:19 -0000 Received: from pnap-us-west-generic-nat.apache.org (HELO spamd3-us-west.apache.org) (209.188.14.142) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Sun, 24 Mar 2019 20:46:19 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spamd3-us-west.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at spamd3-us-west.apache.org) with ESMTP id 4648A182562 for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2019 20:46:19 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at spamd3-us-west.apache.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=disabled Authentication-Results: spamd3-us-west.apache.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mx1-lw-eu.apache.org ([10.40.0.8]) by localhost (spamd3-us-west.apache.org [10.40.0.10]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t9nizXqcBBaI for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2019 20:46:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) by mx1-lw-eu.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at mx1-lw-eu.apache.org) with ESMTPS id 2B73560CDB for ; Sun, 24 Mar 2019 20:46:16 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1553460368; bh=RUbaQMn1QhcsBK4yzJ78lplys4+livR/3esspkRpbAs=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=dpsuT3C6MTUWUgVWIawPAz5WaoGAlBcJrZKGOUesH9j/ij1R1Fni631E9kkoUXVIC iplR4eC8pRjy/V2FMYcctD1qNuiwthjUzLIbesXP7U+W0MqMXsweYYCjkLh4at+1H4 BHiEXYXDJ55jB8nt6IvrbuHk2uzzd8r8RbVPWxcc= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.4] ([77.190.86.142]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LnkiR-1gUhv519lX-00hsqp; Sun, 24 Mar 2019 21:46:08 +0100 Subject: Re: Binary compatibility fixed + Kotlin DSL To: dev@groovy.apache.org, MG , =?UTF-8?Q?C=c3=a9dric_Champeau?= References: <1553091410958-0.post@n5.nabble.com> <834bd400-a2f3-6da7-9ec0-afd5695d5523@tiscali.it> <74644F23-CE29-4CC9-9BC3-6B54828C318E@softamo.com> <0edab854-4c43-4db6-8db7-f3245a353b05@arscreat.com> <69e07f21-427b-0603-c63b-1c8ba85b1177@arscreat.com> From: Jochen Theodorou Message-ID: Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 21:46:07 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <69e07f21-427b-0603-c63b-1c8ba85b1177@arscreat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:EJbvsSiF3Jy6rBZZiKIYw0ST4SP0YU796nRsqSWOENmbB1V2RkY fGaD2eOcWrC3X2ECTuC+t/yXMxQEX4RVvwxVPgsy2L+yTTV8FPvkKRGwc9xyxFN6kZ91K/p +mxaAiB8grkOUDa/3WPMjswNPKkRcOwvSlIjcJbsJQ8cmXA+yf+0l2fcM+/vDQBpiL/JqNc W4K7y4OQmdessCecqcBgw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:uRfy2WFVxPs=:MiQ8U8uihDcBwGdOtt297u 3jr5iPzUp85AKm5Jgla/FCTZ87p6RcN/xKVj+MXdHvEtouMau+tSxYGITMr++BXCgm42KibSi akyqAZKzFzVRh4xSdGc45K+DzkN7ZR4lFQetQDKDZXbbZkznnrTtE+01rhNW/mfFSJjzCW5SW o9oxYRuTlERe31cIGWyh3o5ncZq1Bpcf0tjPj6U+LvrU+e3qBtydhZIFsA5iziYrGwQC/G5eV DEOUwKMddF/GBR5+363o/IBQKBBOluJORg22NmaG3CAQkxbcvOEZOQM3HiLM1OTaFbqTTCQHW vINtpXDcHH/8btC8ErrcMGh1IHfvl91A4XpGbN1R5HjA2FtjiG2WFk8TXMY9cwNKptGdGeC2u qHtU+wSJGWHvFX1i9VvflBaImjM6wwDXOGE0tcVQiyvPWF85FeqLfx8kspCQZAH3Ot7tGibk6 t5xD6LFEFu68uPHRNRfjiViTXfktOM0nvxeriaNN9agfcSzeeKqKbhU/6sbyPQ9uVuEXsppXO QD0Lv8LI84Q5y+OajkNg/JgPatkMNnCuhEXv+5l35K43f6ZVndYdI6vbqh+j4oN0fSKGyFEx5 LTTCQnZqb5cn/x5GxjqcDAc9WueJ4h2SxuwQvJMedL1Svw2wkBplVYXML/TIWJrwN0sv/6fO0 w8RYaqiMwm28xDuWz6cycDsbBGknOPYpwYMfplrWqPL3pgpVR2OwkJCUBiTc+C6duNnnqBmtP GbwDYFZHHSgVkCttvE/goIHGuf215z0i3hfNL6cjhlYxud+6tOFXy42zegxa0yENqM4htIZbJ AUIVH+KEmNa0Y3tbN9yEFPi/y3TQGqQxFUCVP+gX+T7pgrB8O/p/PklsQ7QyAsblLNItgqCen mXNsNWDPUEoVqRKFwCZd73b4N4FHNjUdOOO2TwuHlyjIsadTYEOenqyi0yrB1eUCS1LZkidIx QEGwfuwYCfA== First of all it would be nice of Cedric to explain what post it was that triggered him like this. I still have trouble reading that post from MG like that. And sure there is a conflict of interests here, between Gradle and Groovy. Gradle wants the best support for their developers for the cheapest prize. And the choice is here between something seemingly difficult to teach the IDEs and somebody else doing the work for/with you, giving you a chance to modernize the DSL as well. Not wanting sentimental thoughts getting in the way of business they did the right choice in the long term. Of course realization reality and motivation differ. Cedric has always been on our side, making his stand in Gradle a difficult one. It is no wonder he reacts harsh if somebody gives him the impression he works against Groovy. If it was that post I am sure MG did not mean it personal at all. And if it really was that post, it would be a nice gesture of MG to apologize (even it was not ment like that) and for Cedric to reconsider. [...] On 23.03.19 21:00, MG wrote: > > On 22/03/2019 03:37, Thibault Kruse wrote: >> On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 11:03 AM MG wrote: >>> Maybe I am missing something, but it seems to me that Jetbrains could >>> have put their weight behind Groovy, especially its static part, >>> gaining all the benefits with regards to tool support / Intellisense >>> they now claim for Kotlin >> I believe in this 2016 article Cedric had explained in good detail why >> this is not a mere matter of Jetbrains putting more weight behind >> anything: >> http://melix.github.io/blog/2016/05/gradle-kotlin.html > > I have read C=C3=A9dric's post several times back then, and have reread = it > now, and to me it says exactly that: It would have been possible to do > this in Groovy, just not by C=C3=A9dric alone; e.g.: > > "Does it make sense [to support Groovy in addition to Kotlin] ? Now that > we made the decision to support Kotlin, that we proved it would provide > the level of user friendliness we want and that it is statically > compiled by default, does it make sense to put resources to support > static Groovy in addition? I don=E2=80=99t have an answer to this. I tho= ught > yes, but now I=E2=80=99m not sure. Kotlin does the job. And honestly, th= ey have > great engineers working on the language." Well, what exactly are the differences between the new DSL and the Groovy DSL? I am not talking about the potential differences. I am talking about the existing differences for non-core plugins. The examples I have seen so far look like Groovy rewrites with small changes. Does somebody have a link on how to write a Gradle plugin that then will have the IDE support in Kotlin scripts? Do these plugins have to be in Kotlin for example? How are recent developments in that DSL? > In addition it has been confirmed here by other Groovy stalwarts that > Gradle wanted changes in (the static part of) Groovy, which the project > just could not deliver with the manpower available. what changes was that again? I mark JavaOne 2015 as the beginning of this (https://blog.jetbrains.com/kotlin/2016/05/gradle-meets-kotlin/). That was the same year of the Pivotal layoffs forcing all of the members paid to officially develop Groovy into new Jobs and no company being able or willing to leverage the former team as whole or in parts to keep working on Groovy. > Jetbrains had a > choice, and they decided to go along the Kotlin route, and they offered > that plus excellent IDE support to the Gradle people, who took it. As I > have said before: Commercially all completely understandable - but at > the same time it put them in direct competition with Groovy, with the > fact that IntelliJ is the IDE for Groovy development making matters > infinitely more complicated. It is not like the Kotlin people spending all their time on making a better DSL for Gradle. Otherwise it would not take that long for that Kotlin DSL to develop. But since I am not actively following that development I may have missed the great things they made possible in the meantime. bye Jochen