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I don't think I would use this operator, its confusing for me (even the unpacked version I would probably rewrite), and so would be confusing for junior devs, which I see as dangerous. Having the option of changing some base syntax though would be a huge boon for dsl writers, one of the big niches that Groovy dominates in the jvm world. I would certainly appreciate and use that. Groovy 3 couldn't come fast enough for me if it had that in. David. On 26 January 2017 at 10:13, Andres Almiray wrote: > Here's another idea: > > What if this new operator and other syntax changes were to be introduced > as parser/compiler plugins? > > This way the core syntax stays the same yet it may open the possibility > for certain groups to enhance the Groovy syntax according to their needs > without affecting everyone else. > > Don't how how feasible this is given that it requires changes to both > parser and compiler APIs. > > Cheers, > Andres > > ------------------------------------------- > Java Champion; Groovy Enthusiast > http://jroller.com/aalmiray > http://www.linkedin.com/in/aalmiray > -- > What goes up, must come down. Ask any system administrator. > There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, > and those who don't. > To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion. > > On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:05 AM, Remi Forax wrote: > >> The other problem i see is that the fat arrow =3D> is used by several >> mainstream languages ; C#, Scala, JavaScript at least ; for declaring a >> lambda. >> This will confuse people in my opinion. >> >> Moreover as Jochen said , implies is a lazy operator, like && and ||, so >> the operator should be more =3D>=3D> than =3D> (i.e !a || b vs !a | b). >> Also if there is a method 'implies' as there is a method 'plus', implies >> should take a closure and not the result of an expression. >> At that point, the question is whenever or not to also implement && and >> || as method and has a general 'lift' syntax when declaring a method, it >> will make simple macro far easier to write at the expense of more magic. >> >> R=C3=A9mi >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *De: *"Guillaume Laforge" >> *=C3=80: *dev@groovy.apache.org >> *Cc: *"Groovy_Developers" >> *Envoy=C3=A9: *Jeudi 26 Janvier 2017 10:33:21 >> *Objet: *Re: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: About the "implies" operator(GROOVY-257= 6) >> >> I'm not super convinced either, and I'm wondering when I'd really use >> such an operator. >> I'm kinda +0 as C=C3=A9dric here. >> >> Not that we should copy or not other languages, but are there others tha= t >> have such an operator, and if this is the case, do we know how (much) it= 's >> used? >> >> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, C=C3=A9dric Champeau < >> cedric.champeau@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I know it's well known in mathematical logic, but I don't want Groovy t= o >>> become Scalaz either. The route is dangerous. >>> >>> 2017-01-26 10:18 GMT+01:00 Daniel Sun : >>> >>>> Hi C=C3=A9dric, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Here is the background of the =E2=80=9Cimplies=E2=80=9D operator,= which is well >>>> known in the mathematical logic =F0=9F=98=89 >>>> >>>> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Implies.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: *[hidden email] >>>> >>>> *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: *2017=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=8826=E6= =97=A5 17:12 >>>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: *[hidden email] >>>> >>>> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: *Re: About the "implies" operator(GROOVY-2576) >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm not convinced we should add more operators. Honestly, I had to rea= d >>>> the description of the "implies" operator to understand what it does. = This >>>> is clearly not the case for || or &&, which are "well known" operators= . >>>> >>>> I am also worried about code becoming ascii art: >>>> >>>> { a -> a =3D> a <=3D c =3D> d } >>>> >>>> So I'm just +0, I don't see that I would use it often enough to >>>> mitigate the drawbacks. >>>> >>>> 2017-01-26 1:47 GMT+01:00 Daniel Sun <[hidden email] >>>> >: >>>> Hi Jochen, >>>> >>>> Thanks for your analysis in detail :) >>>> >>>> =3D> is a very expressive operator. if we could implement it as >>>> +(corresponding to plus method) does and apply different business logi= c >>>> when necessary, it would be much more useful. And the default >>>> implementation of "implies" method can be "!a||b". >>>> >>>> As to the association of the operator, I prefer the left >>>> association, i.e. a =3D> b =3D> c is equivalent to (a =3D> b) =3D> c. >>>> >>>> The above is the initial plan to implement the "implies" >>>> operator. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Daniel.Sun >>>> >>>> >>>> =E5=9C=A8 2017=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=8826=E6=97=A5 =E4=B8=8A=E5=8D=883:20=EF= =BC=8C"Jochen Theodorou [via Groovy]" >>>> >>> On 25.01.2017 17:50, Daniel Sun wrote: >>>> >>>> > Hi all, >>>> > >>>> > The "implies" operator "=3D>" was suggested many years ago, h= ere >>>> is the >>>> > replated JIRA issue( GROOVY-2576 >>>> > ) . >>>> > >>>> > Do you want it for Groovy 3? (+1: yes; -1: no; 0: not bad) >>>> > >>>> > BTW, recently I have been going through the issues related to >>>> the old >>>> > parser, many issues existing for many years do not exist in the new >>>> parser >>>> > Parrot :) >>>> >>>> If we do this (and I say +1) we should clear some things: >>>> 1) what does a=3D>b=3D>c mean, since (a=3D>b)=3D>c is not the same as = a=3D>(b=3D>c) >>>> 2) use groovy truth and when to apply it? If we map a=3D>b to !a||b, t= hen >>>> it will use Groovy truth on a and b, but if we map to an implies metho= d >>>> it will get a and b, use groovy truth on them or not and we then maybe >>>> use groovy truth on the result. I personally would be for not using >>>> groovy truth here, thus make it more in line with | and &. >>>> 3) if a=3D>b is mapped to !a||b we will evaluate a, negate it, and >>>> depending on the result maybe never evaluate b. As long as a and b are >>>> free of side effects, that does not play an extremely important role, >>>> but if we map it to a method a and b will be evaluated always. If we >>>> would say it is more like !a|b, which would also require both being >>>> evaluated, then there is still the fact that !a ensures we call here >>>> always the boolean or function, never one defined by an arbitrary a >>>> 4) instead of using !a, which converts a to a boolean and negates it, >>>> we >>>> can also use ~a, which is a binary negate also working on booleans, bu= t >>>> not converting a to a boolean if it is no boolean. Here we have to >>>> especially think about ~a|b calling "or" on a Pattern if a is a String= . >>>> Also not many things besides boolean and numbers really support >>>> something useful of the binary negate. >>>> >>>> I mention those points so we can make a proper specification for the >>>> behaviour of this operator ;) >>>> >>>> bye Jochen >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the >>>> discussion below: >>>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/About-the-implies-operato >>>> r-GROOVY-2576-tp5738035p5738042.html >>>> To unsubscribe from About the "implies" operator(GROOVY-2576), click >>>> here. >>>> NAML >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> View this message in context: Re: About the "implies" >>>> operator(GROOVY-2576) >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from the Groovy Dev mailing list archive >>>> at >>>> Nabble.com. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the >>>> discussion below: >>>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/About-the-implies-operato >>>> r-GROOVY-2576-tp5738035p5738104.html >>>> To unsubscribe from About the "implies" operator(GROOVY-2576), click >>>> here. >>>> NAML >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> View this message in context: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: About the "implies" >>>> operator(GROOVY-2576) >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from the Groovy Dev mailing list archive >>>> at >>>> Nabble.com. >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Guillaume Laforge >> Apache Groovy committer & PMC Vice-President >> Developer Advocate @ Google Cloud Platform >> >> Blog: http://glaforge.appspot.com/ >> Social: @glaforge / Google+ >> >> >> > --=20 David Dawson | CEO | Simplicity Itself Tel +44 7866 011 256 Skype: davidadawson david.dawson@simplicityitself.com http://www.simplicityitself.com --94eb2c1900367029f30546fcc1b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For me, what is lovely about Groovy is not how much is has= "in the box", it's the flexibility and extensibility of the = language.

I don't think I would use this operator, i= ts confusing for me (even the unpacked version I would probably rewrite), a= nd so would be confusing for junior devs, which I see as dangerous.

Having the option of changing some base syntax though wou= ld be a huge boon for dsl writers, one of the big niches that Groovy domina= tes in the jvm world.

I would certainly appreciate= and use that.=C2=A0 Groovy 3 couldn't come fast enough for me if it ha= d that in.

David.


On 26 January 2017 at 1= 0:13, Andres Almiray <aalmiray@gmail.com> wrote:
Here'= s another idea:

What if this new operator and other syntax cha= nges were to be introduced as parser/compiler plugins?

This wa= y the core syntax stays the same yet it may open the possibility for certai= n groups to enhance the Groovy syntax according to their needs without affe= cting everyone else.

Don't how how feasible this is given = that it requires changes to both parser and compiler APIs.

Che= ers,
Andres
<= br clear=3D"all">
-----------------------------------= --------
Java Champion; Groovy Enthusiast
http://jroller.com/aalmiray
http://www.linke= din.com/in/aalmiray
--
What goes up, must come down. Ask any= system administrator.
There are 10 types of people in the world: Those = who understand binary, and those who don't.
To understand recursion,= we must first understand recursion.

On Thu, Jan 26= , 2017 at 11:05 AM, Remi Forax <forax@univ-mlv.fr> wrote:
The other problem i see i= s that the fat arrow =3D> is used by several mainstream languages ; C#, = Scala, JavaScript at least ; for declaring a lambda.
This wil= l confuse people in my opinion.

Moreover as Jo= chen said , implies is a lazy operator, like && and ||, so the oper= ator should be more =3D>=3D> than =3D> (i.e !a || b vs !a | b).
Also if there is a method 'implies' as there is a metho= d 'plus', implies should take a closure and not the result of an ex= pression.
At that point, the question is whenever or not to = also implement && and || as method and has a general 'lift'= syntax when declaring a method, it will make simple macro far easier to wr= ite at the expense of more magic.

R=C3=A9mi

De= : "Guillaume Laforge" <glaforge@gmail.com>
=C3=80: dev@groovy.apache.org
Cc: "Groovy_Developers" <dev@groovy.incubator.apache.o<= wbr>rg>
Envoy=C3=A9: Jeudi 26 Janvier 2017 10:33:21
= Objet: Re: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: About the "implies" operator(G= ROOVY-2576)
I'm not super convinced either, and I'm wondering when I&#= 39;d really use such an operator.
I'm kinda +0 as C=C3=A9dric here.=

Not that we should copy or not other languages, but are ther= e others that have such an operator, and if this is the case, do we know ho= w (much) it's used?

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, C=C3=A9dric Champeau <cedric.champeau@gmail.com> wrote:
I know it's well known in mathematical = logic, but I don't want Groovy to become Scalaz either. The route is da= ngerous.

2017-01-26 10:18 GMT+01:00 = Daniel Sun <realbluesun@hotmail.com>:

Hi C=C3=A9dric,

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Here i= s the background of the =E2=80=9Cimplies=E2=80=9D operator, which is well known in the mathemat= ical logic =F0=9F=98=89

http://mathworld.= wolfram.com/Implies.html

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB= =B6=E4=BA=BA: [hidden em= ail]
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2017=E5=B9=B41= =E6=9C=8826=E6=97=A5 17:12=
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: [hidden email]=
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: About the "implies" operator(GROOVY-2576)

=C2=A0

I'm not convinced we should add more operators. Honest= ly, I had to read the description of the "implies" operator to un= derstand what it does. This is clearly not the case for || or &&, w= hich are "well known" operators.

I am also worried about code becoming ascii art:

{ a -> a =3D> a <=3D c =3D> d }

So I'm just +0, I don't see that I would use it often enough t= o mitigate the drawbacks.

2017-01-26 1:47 GMT+01:00 Daniel Sun <[hidden email]>= :
Hi Jochen,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thanks for your analysis in= detail :)

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =3D> is a very exp= ressive operator. if we could implement it as +(corresponding to plus metho= d) does and apply different business logic when necessary, it would be much= more useful. And the default implementation of "implies" method = can be "!a||b".

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As to the assoc= iation of the operator, I prefer the left association, i.e. a =3D> b =3D= > c is equivalent to (a =3D> b) =3D> c.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The above is the init= ial plan to implement the=C2=A0 "implies" operator.

Cheers,
Daniel.Sun


=E5=9C=A8 2017= =E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=8826=E6=97=A5 =E4=B8=8A=E5=8D=883:20=EF=BC=8C"Jochen = Theodorou [via Groovy]" <ml-node+s329449n5738042h6
On 25.01.2017 17:50, Daniel Sun wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The "implies" operator "=3D&= gt;" was suggested many years ago, here is the
> replated JIRA issue( GROOVY-2576
> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/= GROOVY-2576> =C2=A0) .
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Do you want it for Groovy 3? (+1: yes; -1: = no; 0: not bad)
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BTW, recently I have been going through the= issues related to the old
> parser, many issues existing for many years do not exist in the new pa= rser
> Parrot :)

If we do this (and I say +1) we should clear some things:
1) what does a=3D>b=3D>c mean, since (a=3D>b)=3D>c is not the s= ame as a=3D>(b=3D>c)
2) use groovy truth and when to apply it? If we map a=3D>b to !a||b, the= n
it will use Groovy truth on a and b, but if we map to an implies method it will get a and b, use groovy truth on them or not and we then maybe
use groovy truth on the result. I personally would be for not using
groovy truth here, thus make it more in line with | and &.
3) if a=3D>b is mapped to !a||b we will evaluate a, negate it, and
depending on the result maybe never evaluate b. As long as a and b are
free of side effects, that does not play an extremely important role,
but if we map it to a method a and b will be evaluated always. If we
would say it is more like !a|b, which would also require both being
evaluated, then there is still the fact that !a ensures we call here
always the boolean or function, never one defined by an arbitrary a
4) instead of using !a, which converts a to a boolean and negates it, we can also use ~a, which is a binary negate also working on booleans, but not converting a to a boolean if it is no boolean. Here we have to
especially think about ~a|b calling "or" on a Pattern if a is a S= tring.
Also not many things besides boolean and numbers really support
something useful of the binary negate.

I mention those points so we can make a proper specification for the
behaviour of this operator ;)

bye Jochen


If you reply to this email, your message wi= ll be added to the discussion below:
http:/= /groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/About-the-implies-operator-GROOVY-25= 76-tp5738035p5738042.html
To unsubscribe from About the "implies" operator(GROOVY-2576), click here.
NAML

View this message in context: Re: About the "implies" operator(GROOVY-2576)

Sent from the Groovy Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.



If you reply to this email, your message wi= ll be added to the discussion below:
http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/About-the-implies-operator-GROOVY-2576-tp5738035p5738104.html
To unsubscribe from About the "implies" operator(GROOVY-2576), click here.
NAML
=09 =09 =09
View this message in context: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: About the "implies" operator(GROOVY-25= 76)

Sent from the Groovy Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.c= om.




--
Guillaume Laforge
Apache Groovy committer= & PMC Vice-President
Developer Advocate @ Google= Cloud Platform

Blog:=C2=A0http://glaforge.appspot.com/
Socia= l: @glaforge= =C2=A0/ Google+




--


David Dawson |=C2=A0C= EO |=C2=A0Simplicity Itself

Tel += 44 7866 011 256
Skype: davidadawson
david.dawson@simplicityitself.com=
http://www.simplicityitself.com
--94eb2c1900367029f30546fcc1b6--