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From Sergei Egorov <bsid...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: 答复: About the "implies" operator(GROOVY-2576)
Date Thu, 26 Jan 2017 10:12:51 GMT
-1 from me.

First of all, it's hard to understand what it does and to read it later.
Also, => is Lambda notation in JS/C# and people from these languages will
be very confused about it.

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 12:06 PM Remi Forax <forax@univ-mlv.fr> wrote:

> The other problem i see is that the fat arrow => is used by several
> mainstream languages ; C#, Scala, JavaScript at least ; for declaring a
> lambda.
> This will confuse people in my opinion.
>
> Moreover as Jochen said , implies is a lazy operator, like && and ||, so
> the operator should be more =>=> than => (i.e !a || b vs !a | b).
> Also if there is a method 'implies' as there is a method 'plus', implies
> should take a closure and not the result of an expression.
> At that point, the question is whenever or not to also implement && and ||
> as method and has a general 'lift' syntax when declaring a method, it will
> make simple macro far easier to write at the expense of more magic.
>
> Rémi
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *De: *"Guillaume Laforge" <glaforge@gmail.com>
> *À: *dev@groovy.apache.org
> *Cc: *"Groovy_Developers" <dev@groovy.incubator.apache.org>
> *Envoyé: *Jeudi 26 Janvier 2017 10:33:21
> *Objet: *Re: 答复: About the "implies" operator(GROOVY-2576)
>
> I'm not super convinced either, and I'm wondering when I'd really use such
> an operator.
> I'm kinda +0 as Cédric here.
>
> Not that we should copy or not other languages, but are there others that
> have such an operator, and if this is the case, do we know how (much) it's
> used?
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Cédric Champeau <
> cedric.champeau@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I know it's well known in mathematical logic, but I don't want Groovy to
> become Scalaz either. The route is dangerous.
>
> 2017-01-26 10:18 GMT+01:00 Daniel Sun <realbluesun@hotmail.com>:
>
> Hi Cédric,
>
>
>
>      Here is the background of the “implies” operator, which is well
> known in the mathematical logic 😉
>
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Implies.html
>
>
>
>
>
> *发件人: *[hidden email]
> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5738105&i=0>
> *发送时间: *2017年1月26日 17:12
> *收件人: *[hidden email]
> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5738105&i=1>
> *主题: *Re: About the "implies" operator(GROOVY-2576)
>
>
> I'm not convinced we should add more operators. Honestly, I had to read
> the description of the "implies" operator to understand what it does. This
> is clearly not the case for || or &&, which are "well known" operators.
>
> I am also worried about code becoming ascii art:
>
> { a -> a => a <= c => d }
>
> So I'm just +0, I don't see that I would use it often enough to mitigate
> the drawbacks.
>
> 2017-01-26 1:47 GMT+01:00 Daniel Sun <[hidden email]
> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5738104&i=0>>:
> Hi Jochen,
>
>       Thanks for your analysis in detail :)
>
>        => is a very expressive operator. if we could implement it as
> +(corresponding to plus method) does and apply different business logic
> when necessary, it would be much more useful. And the default
> implementation of "implies" method can be "!a||b".
>
>         As to the association of the operator, I prefer the left
> association, i.e. a => b => c is equivalent to (a => b) => c.
>
>        The above is the initial plan to implement the  "implies" operator.
>
> Cheers,
> Daniel.Sun
>
>
> 在 2017年1月26日 上午3:20,"Jochen Theodorou [via Groovy]"
> <ml-node+s329449n5738042h6
> On 25.01.2017 17:50, Daniel Sun wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> >        The "implies" operator "=>" was suggested many years ago, here is
> the
> > replated JIRA issue( GROOVY-2576
> > <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/GROOVY-2576>  ) .
> >
> >        Do you want it for Groovy 3? (+1: yes; -1: no; 0: not bad)
> >
> >        BTW, recently I have been going through the issues related to the
> old
> > parser, many issues existing for many years do not exist in the new
> parser
> > Parrot :)
>
> If we do this (and I say +1) we should clear some things:
> 1) what does a=>b=>c mean, since (a=>b)=>c is not the same as a=>(b=>c)
> 2) use groovy truth and when to apply it? If we map a=>b to !a||b, then
> it will use Groovy truth on a and b, but if we map to an implies method
> it will get a and b, use groovy truth on them or not and we then maybe
> use groovy truth on the result. I personally would be for not using
> groovy truth here, thus make it more in line with | and &.
> 3) if a=>b is mapped to !a||b we will evaluate a, negate it, and
> depending on the result maybe never evaluate b. As long as a and b are
> free of side effects, that does not play an extremely important role,
> but if we map it to a method a and b will be evaluated always. If we
> would say it is more like !a|b, which would also require both being
> evaluated, then there is still the fact that !a ensures we call here
> always the boolean or function, never one defined by an arbitrary a
> 4) instead of using !a, which converts a to a boolean and negates it, we
> can also use ~a, which is a binary negate also working on booleans, but
> not converting a to a boolean if it is no boolean. Here we have to
> especially think about ~a|b calling "or" on a Pattern if a is a String.
> Also not many things besides boolean and numbers really support
> something useful of the binary negate.
>
> I mention those points so we can make a proper specification for the
> behaviour of this operator ;)
>
> bye Jochen
>
>
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