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From Edward Capriolo <edlinuxg...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Leave apache and the incubator
Date Fri, 06 Jul 2018 02:21:49 GMT
I filed our report a day late. Sorry for the delay.


I made note that we are in discussion to leave the incubator.

This leaves 9 podlings that did not report for yall to track down :)

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 6:29 PM, Josh Elser <elserj@apache.org> wrote:

> I won't rehash the comments on the more frequent reporting and
> shepherding. I think they were appropriately answered already on
> general@incubator (sorry if the CC to this list was dropped).
> I want to address the notion that mentors or other ASF members are here to
> build communities. We're not.
> We're here to provide guardrails to try to build healthy communities.
> We're here to help with technical challenges in getting your software
> lifecycle up on ASF infrastructure. We're here to help with the legal
> challenges of software licensing and copyright. We're here to be human
> mentors for when there are questions about interpersonal issues or
> attracting new people.
> We're not here to build the community for you.
> At the end of the day, I haven't seen an email to this list that wasn't a
> podling report request in months. I actually stopped hounding Ed personally
> because it had become a regular thing. There is absolutely no shame in
> saying that Gossip is not ready for the ASF. I'd really encourage you all
> to take a step back and think about that. I honestly think moving to Github
> would make you all much happier, and, an eventual move to the Incubator
> again later, would be that much easier (knowing what goes into it).
> On 7/5/18 1:00 PM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>> The challenge with this process is Apache claims to be about "building
>> communities", but you do not have great tools to do that. A number of
>> apache projects are propped up by some for profit company who just pays
>> people to work on that thing all the time.
>> I asked for 3 months (normal reporting cycle) to re-evaluate and have a
>> legit chance at re-bootstrapping. I go to write up the report (which are
>> now suddenly due every month that no one discussed with me). The report
>> due
>> July 4th a US holiday. I go to write the report find a convo in the
>> incubator about how people want to close up the podling because they can
>> not even wait to see if I actually get the report in or not.
>> Meanwhile the project had this "shepard" who never signed off a report and
>> his first interaction with the ML was to vote on shutting down the
>> podling.
>> Great job "building communities".
>> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Josh Elser <elserj@apache.org> wrote:
>> Hey Ed,
>>> I think taking Gossip back to Github is the right decision. The Incubator
>>> is designed to support, long-running, low-activity projects like you
>>> outline. The regular reports on progress become a time-sink because there
>>> isn't the expected level of volume or participants.
>>> The incubator works well when there is an established community of folks
>>> who are active. Like you say, this otherwise becomes a burden on you (the
>>> sole contributor, best as I can see), taking your time away from actually
>>> producing software.
>>> +1 from me
>>> On 7/5/18 9:18 AM, Edward Capriolo wrote:
>>> All,
>>>> It was a sizable effort moving everything Gossip into the incubator.
>>>> Thank
>>>> you all for your help along the way. Recently activity has slowed down,
>>>> much of this falls on me.
>>>> My opinion is gossip would be much better off moving back to github and
>>>> be
>>>> independently hosted (by me or someone else) I believe for the following
>>>> reasons:
>>>> Infrastructure:
>>>> AAA
>>>> I forgot my password and when I clicked the "FORGOT MY PASSWORD" link I
>>>> got
>>>> back a PGP email. No instructions in the email, lol city. I had to
>>>> google
>>>> around ASFs site to try to figure out what to do. Try googling 'pgp lost
>>>> password' on apache's docs and figuring out what you need to do.
>>>> Releases:
>>>> The release process for most Java projects using maven 'mvn
>>>> release:clean
>>>> && mvn release:prepare && mvn release:perform". Hosting is
free and sign
>>>> up
>>>> takes less then a day. Apache incubator wants to see releases as a sign
>>>> of
>>>> health, yet the release process is involved. We have to do the maven
>>>> steps,
>>>> generate an email with the checksums of all critical files, post a vote
>>>> on
>>>> the incubator list, release the artifacts to central, and copy them to
>>>> an
>>>> svn directory.
>>>> That is a vote across 2 mailing lists. and all the maven steps, and
>>>> other
>>>> manual steps, and that does not even count getting the website changed.
>>>> For
>>>> me what is a 5 minute thing turns into a days long process. The net
>>>> result
>>>> is we have features in trunk not in the release because doing a release
>>>> is
>>>> just a drag. No one is even half interested in taking on this process
>>>> and
>>>> I
>>>> only did it because it is the only way.
>>>> Community:
>>>> Apache incubator is about building communities.
>>>> Mailing list
>>>> The mailing list is fairly opaque to me. I am sure there is some way to
>>>> figure out what the subscriber base is but I don't know it.
>>>> Jira
>>>> Jira is great tool but the implementation slows people down. New users
>>>> have
>>>> to sign up, and they are unable to assign themselves tickets until I
>>>> navigate into JIRA and add them to a group. With open source and
>>>> attracting
>>>> contributors it helps to be able to strike while the iron is hot. Having
>>>> users confused as to weather they can start on a task does not help with
>>>> that.
>>>> GIT
>>>> Apache has git but not github is only a mirror. When I have to merge
>>>> peoples stuff I have to do it by hand with git commands. (No squash and
>>>> merge button)
>>>> Updating the site:
>>>> Another series of obscure svn commands, making simple things hard, (much
>>>> like the release process)
>>>> Reports
>>>> I get an 4-5 emails at different rates titled "Incubator Report Due" at
>>>> different rates. Only one of them is for this project. We were never
>>>> great
>>>> with reports. Almost all the info in the report could be automatically
>>>> generated. We missed a report, we got placed onto a report now do every
>>>> month category.
>>>> The last one was due yesterday, sorry I was enjoying a hotdog at a bbq,
>>>> I
>>>> went to fill it out today and, saw yet another email chain on the
>>>> incubator
>>>> list about how Gossip should leave apache. The report is just another
>>>> huge
>>>> time suck, the time I spend doing it I could be doing an hour of code
>>>> review.
>>>> Even though some things are in the incubator 7 years, and some apache
>>>> TLPs
>>>> have no activity Gossip out of the incubator seems to be a constant
>>>> thing
>>>> for some....
>>>> So lets get out of here.

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