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Message-ID: <38f47a240710051122j69fd727fpf27a7934c0e71acf@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 13:22:41 -0500
From: "James Ervin" <jeervin@gmail.com>
To: user@geronimo.apache.org
Subject: Re: Help with the Geronimo Eclipse Plugin
Cc: "Shiva Kumar H R" <shivahr@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <47067A06.2070104@gmail.com>
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References: <38f47a240708062011h498fbf3by27f29676d1663777@mail.gmail.com>
	 <38f47a240708130843r58fa850bnbe4ccd62c5d5185a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <38f47a240708150847s6ac30d1dibe149d3c7ee51952@mail.gmail.com>
	 <38f47a240708150948g58e5c211gfe952011aaecb053@mail.gmail.com>
	 <5da94e5a0708160809p2da8420fmcaf996b4d3965da@mail.gmail.com>
	 <38f47a240708160925i541d58b0sd1c7b155eb82dc76@mail.gmail.com>
	 <5da94e5a0708171204i38171364se0387d6c3357abb5@mail.gmail.com>
	 <5da94e5a0708210957k14bce1c3ydc8470b39cbb20d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <38f47a240710051000m346f7a5ao59d77baa4439fa15@mail.gmail.com>
	 <47067A06.2070104@gmail.com>

No thank you, of course as I have been thinking about it I do like the
idea of a simple declarative extension point.  There would be no
direct coupling and then people are once again able to name their
containers anything they want.  Still you know IMHO anyone who puts
their own JRE container and does not preface the path with
org.eclipse.jdt.launching.JRE_CONTAINER/ is playing with fire.
Conventions should be obeyed unless you absolutely can not.

James

On 10/5/07, Tim McConnell <tim.mcconne@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi James, We're planning an upcoming maintenance release for the plugin. The
> current plan is to incorporate your code patch/snippet (that you've provided
> below) into that release, and then work on a more long-term solution (e.g., with
> an extension point possibly) in a subsequent major release. I'll update the JIRA
> accordingly. Thanks much
>
>
>
> James Ervin wrote:
> > I was wondering if there has been any progress on
> > GERONIMODEVTOOLS-185.  There was some activity in late August, so I
> > was hoping that the enhancement would have been made already.  In fact
> > I would consider submitting a patch for this but I know that someone
> > was already assigned it.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > James
> >
> > On 8/21/07, Shiva Kumar H R <shivahr@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> JIRA GERONIMODEVTOOLS-185 created to track this.
> >>
> >> - Shiva
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8/18/07, Shiva Kumar H R <shivahr@gmail.com > wrote:
> >>> That's great. I will create a JIRA for this on Monday.
> >>>
> >>> - Shiva
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 8/16/07, James Ervin < jeervin@gmail.com > wrote:
> >>>> I modified the part of the processJavaProject() method that deals with
> >>>> containers like so:
> >>>>
> >>>> SharedLibEntryCreationOperation.java:
> >>>> processJavaProject()
> >>>>            <--- Begin code snippet --->
> >>>>            if( kind == IClasspathEntry.CPE_CONTAINER )
> >>>>            {
> >>>>                 if( entry.getPath().segment( 0 ).startsWith(
> >>>> "org.eclipse.jdt.launching" ) )
> >>>>                     continue;
> >>>>                 if( entry.getPath().segment( 0 ).startsWith(
> >>>> "org.eclipse.jst." ) )
> >>>>                     continue;
> >>>>                 if( entry.getPath().segment( 0 ).startsWith(
> >>>> "org.eclipse.wst" ) )
> >>>>                     continue;
> >>>> //                if(
> >>>> "org.maven.ide.eclipse.MAVEN2_CLASSPATH_CONTAINER
> >> ".equals(
> >>>> entry.getPath().toString() ) )
> >>>> //                {
> >>>>                 final IClasspathContainer container =
> >>>> JavaCore.getClasspathContainer(entry.getPath(), javaProject);
> >>>>                 final IClasspathEntry[] containerEntries =
> >>>> container.getClasspathEntries();
> >>>>                 for( int j = 0; j  < containerEntries.length; j++ )
> >>>>                     addEntry( entries, resolveVarOrLibEntry(
> >>>> containerEntries[ j ] ) );
> >>>> //                }
> >>>>             }
> >>>>            <--- End Code Snippet --->
> >>>>
> >>>> This seems to work for me.  I am checking for the JDT JRE container,
> >>>> any WTP containers and then ignoring those entries.
> >>>>
> >>>> Can anyone see any side-effects to this?
> >>>>
> >>>> James
> >>>>
> >>>> On 8/16/07, Shiva Kumar H R <shivahr@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Looks like I won't be able to resolve this with my current code
> >> knowledge. Will dig into this more tomorrow.
> >>>>> - Shiva
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 8/15/07, James Ervin < jeervin@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> I was thinking about this and I believe the reason that the full
> >> resolved class path is not considered is because it would include entries
> >> from both the JRE classpath container and the Web-App Libraries classpath
> >> container.  Is this correct?  If it is, it would seem easier to just exclude
> >> those classpath containers and then resolve the rest?
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>> James
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 8/15/07, James Ervin < jeervin@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>  I was just following up to see if anyone saw any side effects
> >> from considering the resolved classpath of a java project instead of just
> >> the raw classpath?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> James
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 8/13/07,  James Ervin < jeervin@gmail.com > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>    I was looking at the method a bit and it seems as though the
> >> only classpath container that is recognized is the maven classpath
> >> container.  Perhaps by using the resolved classpath or by removing the if
> >> statement that checks for the maven classpath container exclusively would be
> >> enough.  Maybe the code could be simplified by using getResolvedClasspath()
> >> since I don' t think you would need to call a resolveVarOrLibEntry() method
> >> anymore.
> >>>>>>>> Thanks for pointer btw...  You brightened my morning....
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>> James
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 8/13/07,  James Ervin < jeervin@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Oh that would be awesome.... thanks.... please let me know of
> >> your results ASAP.
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>> James
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 8/13/07, Shiva Kumar H R <     shivahr@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Hi James,
> >>>>>>>>>> Looks like this is what you are looking for (I hit across
> >> this by searching for "getRawClasspath" in plug-in source):
> >>>>>>>>>> "processJavaProject() method of
> >> org.apache.geronimo.st.core.operations.SharedLibEntryCreationOperation.java
> >>  in plugins/org.apache.geronimo.st.core"
> >>>>>>>>>> Now seeing if changing this to getResolvedClasspath (as you
> >> suggest), would lead to any side effects.
> >>>>>>>>>> - Shiva
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On 8/9/07,  James Ervin < jeervin@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 8/8/07, Tim McConnell < tim.mcconne@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>  Hi again James, Sorry for the delay but I've been
> >> trying to fully understand
> >>>>>>>>>>>> what you're trying to accomplish. Have you considered
> >> using the shared lib
> >>>>>>>>>>>> support that is already provided by the Geronimo plugin
> >> publish/deploy
> >>>>>>>>>>>> functionality ?? If I correctly understand what you're
> >> trying to accomplish the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> shared lib support should work for you. It's not obvious
> >> to me though why you
> >>>>>>>>>>>> are so adverse to using the built-in publish/deploy
> >> capabilities of the plugin.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Finally, have you considered upgrading to the latest
> >> versions of Geronimo and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the plugin ?? Geronimo 2.0 is currently being voted on
> >> for release, and the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> plugin will be voted on for release shortly thereafter.
> >> Just curious. Thanks
> >>>>>>>>>>>> much....
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the reply, I actually am using a Publish
> >> Operation to set the shared library support, so yes I am using some of that
> >> support.  The issue I am having is the fact that when the Geronimo plugin is
> >> computing the <Project-Name>.eclipse.jar manifest for the
> >> ${GERONIMO_HOME}/shared/lib directory, it seems to only consider the raw
> >> classpath from the Eclipse JDT.  In other words, it appears almost as though
> >> its using
> >> org.eclipse.jdt.core.IJavaProject.getRawClasspath() instead
> >> of
> >> org.eclipse.jdt.core.IJavaProject.getResolvedClasspath().
> >> I say almost, because it will resolve Classpath Variable entries.  The net
> >> effect is that I have to hard code entries in the .classpath file for each
> >> jar file I want in that manifest, but that is what classpath containers are
> >> supposed to help you with.
> >>>>>>>>>>>  I have considered it, but the circumstances are such that
> >> I have to use what I am given so far.  I will look at version 2.0 and the
> >> latest from the plugin, but that leads me to one of my earlier questions in
> >> my first post.  Where in the plugin do I look for where it is computing the
> >> manifest for the <Project-Name>.eclipse.jar?  I have to admit I am a bit of
> >> a newbie when it comes to EMF (I'm not sure that I hate it, but I have yet
> >> to see what I really like about it.  The idea seems very interesting, but I
> >> am not crazy about the results I have seen so far) and well the Geronimo
> >> Plugin source tree seems almost as big as WTP's at this point, so any
> >> pointers would be most appreciated.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>> James
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> James Ervin wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the reply.  Reviewing the plugins installed
> >> it looks as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> though the plugin is at version 1.0.0 with the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> org.apache.geronimo.runtime.v1 plugin at version
> >> 1.0.1.  Hmm I don't see
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a feature.  I am not quite sure the version of
> >> geronimo.  It comes
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> bundled and is installed by a script so I am not
> >> entirely sure of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> version.  My educated guess is that it is at version
> >> 1.2.  The version
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of WTP is 1.5.x.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Its not straightforward to offer a sample app, since I
> >> can't really
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> offer up my plugin, so I will describe it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> When you add a project dependency for a web app, I
> >> noticed that the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Geronimo Eclipse plugin will generate a jar file in
> >> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ${GERONIMO_HOME}/shared/lib directory with the name
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ${PROJECT_NAME}.eclipse.jar.  In that
> >> jar there is a manifest that is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> pointing at the java source output directories for the
> >> web app project
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the output directories for any project
> >> dependencies.  It would be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> nice to customize that, but that is just fine for now.
> >>  The shared/lib
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> directory is also where I generate a jar file that
> >> contains a manifest
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> describing the set of shared libraries that all
> >> deployed web apps will
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> share.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If I add a classpath entry directly in the .classpath
> >> file for a library
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> jar dependency, it will show in the
> >> ${PROJECT_NAME}.eclipse.jar just
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> fine.  The problem comes in that I want to use a
> >> classpath container to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> resolve library dependencies and not have to manage
> >> entries directly in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the .classpath file.  Even when the container resolves
> >> down to a set of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> flat jar files, it does not matter.  It seems that the
> >> plugin does not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> check the resolved classpath of a java project and
> >> only checks the raw
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> classpath.  Shouldn't it construct the classpath by
> >> checking all project
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> dependencies and by using the resolved, and not raw,
> >> classpath?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am faced with a significant rewrite right now if I
> >> cannot figure out a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> solution, any help would be really appreciated.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> James
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/7/07, * Tim McConnell* <
> >> tim.mcconne@gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto: tim.mcconne@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     Hi James, which version of Geronimo and the
> >> Geronimo plugin are you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     using ??
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     Also, do you have an example test app that you
> >> could attach that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     demonstrates
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     the failure ??
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     James Ervin wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > Hello,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > I am a developer working on an Eclipse plugin
> >> attempting to use
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     WTP to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>        >      > help ppl write Service Based web apps.
> >> Why am I asking a question on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > the geronimo user group?  Well because I am
> >> attempting to use Apache
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > Geronimo as the primary J2EE container.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > My problem is this, I need to be able to deploy
> >> libraries (yes I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     know
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > about the PublishOperation and that I can
> >> generate a jar with a big
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > manifest file enumerating all shared libraries)
> >> that are only used by
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > one particular web app or dependent web app.
> >> So I have a classpath
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > container, the trouble is that the Apache
> >> Geronimo plugin that I have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > access to does not seem to care about entries
> >> in classpath
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     containers,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > only those that are directly enumerated in a
> >> .classpath file (bad
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     form
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > IMHO).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > I have attempted to deploy libs into
> >> WebContent/WEB-INF/lib, but on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > windows WTP ( or some plugin ) keeps the bloody
> >> file lock and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     will not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > let me update or delete it.  I even attempted
> >> to deploy the libs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     to a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > separate directory and then told WTP via a
> >> <wb-resource/> tag in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     the WST
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > common component configuration file where to
> >> find it.  The lib
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     showed up
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > in the list of WebApp Libraries, but then when
> >> deployed to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     Geronimo it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > was not recognized.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > I have tried this and a few other combinations.
> >>  The only one
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     that has
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > worked is if I create a new shared lib entry
> >> jar (bad form since
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     not all
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > web apps on the container will want the given
> >> set of libraries)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     or if I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > enumerate the libraries one by one directly in
> >> the .classpath
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     (classpath
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > containers anyone?).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > Is there anyway to make the plugin respect the
> >> classpath
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     container?  Or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > at least give me a clue through the bloody EMF
> >> wilderness as to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     where in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > the plugin the deployment configuration is
> >> determined so that I can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > consider my options (you know like a patch...)?
> >>  I am at my wits end,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > any help would be most appreciated.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > James E. Ervin
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > A human being should be able to change a
> >> diaper, plan an invasion,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building,
> >> write a sonnet,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     balance
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the
> >> dying, take
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     orders, give
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations,
> >> analyze a new problem,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty
> >> meal, fight
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     efficiently,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > -Robert A. Heinlein
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>      > Blog:       http://iacobus.blogspot.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>     Tim McConnell
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> James E. Ervin, IV
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan
> >> an invasion,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a
> >> sonnet, balance
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying,
> >> take orders, give
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze
> >> a new problem,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal,
> >> fight efficiently,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -Robert A. Heinlein
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Blog:        http://iacobus.blogspot.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Tim McConnell
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> James E. Ervin, IV
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
> >> invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
> >> balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
> >> give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem,
> >> pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
> >> gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
> >>>>>>>>>>> -Robert A. Heinlein
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Blog: http://iacobus.blogspot.com
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> James E. Ervin, IV
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
> >> invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
> >> balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
> >> give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem,
> >> pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
> >> gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
> >>>>>>>>> -Robert A. Heinlein
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Blog: http://iacobus.blogspot.com
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> James E. Ervin, IV
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
> >> invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
> >> balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
> >> give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem,
> >> pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
> >> gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
> >>>>>>>> -Robert A. Heinlein
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Blog: http://iacobus.blogspot.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> James E. Ervin, IV
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
> >> butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
> >> accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give
> >> orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch
> >> manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
> >> gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
> >>>>>>> -Robert A. Heinlein
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Blog: http://iacobus.blogspot.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> James E. Ervin, IV
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
> >> butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
> >> accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give
> >> orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch
> >> manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
> >> gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
> >>>>>> -Robert A. Heinlein
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Blog: http://iacobus.blogspot.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> James E. Ervin, IV
> >>>>
> >>>> A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
> >>>> butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
> >>>> accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
> >>>> give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
> >>>> problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
> >>>> efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
> >>>> -Robert A. Heinlein
> >>>>
> >>>> Blog: http://iacobus.blogspot.com
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Tim McConnell
>


-- 
James E. Ervin, IV

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein

Blog: http://iacobus.blogspot.com