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From Kevan Miller <kevan.mil...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Discuss: Move Geronimo to Attic
Date Wed, 08 Mar 2017 14:02:03 GMT
Thanks Alan! Many thanks for all you've done!

I think we all agree that it is time to retire the Geronimo Server portions
of the project.

My apologies to Romain, Mark, David, and others, but:

I think the entire project should be retired. I confess that I am not
closely following the dev list (I scan it from time to time for a general
sense of what's happening).

I don't see sufficient community behind the remaining sub-projects. If the
Geronimo project didn't exist, I seriously doubt that there would be calls
to form a new Geronimo EE Commons project. In my view, Geronimo is a
convenient code repository for some people interested in releasing code.
Thus, I think the entire project should be moved to the Attic. If there are
parts of the project that should live on, then let them be incorporated
into projects that will provide them the community they deserve.

And now the olive branch...

If there is sufficient community, then that community should be able to
develop a new project description (
https://projects.apache.org/project.html?geronimo) and report to the board.
Note that this change of the project's charter, may require approval by the
Board. And I expect there may be some reluctance to create a new
Commons-style project at the ASF. If we're (you're) able to accomplish
this, then you have my full support.

kevan

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 1:34 AM, Romain Manni-Bucau <rmannibucau@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I share that vision (the one of Mark).
>
> The ee-commons part is really used and still active (even if in
> maintenance mode for several parts) and we need to ensure other projects
> can still rely on it (karaf, tomee, owb, meecrowave, openjpa, ... plus
> several open source ones).
>
> EE is also not dead, likely no more trendy since server side techno is no
> more a challenge but still a real need.
>
> Geronimo AppService not being really developped or maintained anymore I
> can see it being frozen (attic or not is a detail IMO) but other parts are
> still a very good fit for Geronimo community IMO.
>
>
> Romain Manni-Bucau
> @rmannibucau <https://twitter.com/rmannibucau> |  Blog
> <https://blog-rmannibucau.rhcloud.com> | Old Blog
> <http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com> | Github
> <https://github.com/rmannibucau> | LinkedIn
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau> | JavaEE Factory
> <https://javaeefactory-rmannibucau.rhcloud.com>
>
> 2017-03-08 10:26 GMT+01:00 Mark Struberg <struberg@yahoo.de>:
>
>> I see no lack of interest in Java EE to be honest. Of course
>> Microservices are currently spilled high on the hype cycle, but that will
>> quickly blow up imo.
>> MS architecture is only very good for a certain kind of application. For
>> most business apps the granularity is way too fine grain and the missing TX
>> handling is often a showstopper (even if Managers don't see this yet).
>>
>> You are certainly right that there is a lack of interest in the *huge*
>> big-iron app servers!
>> So yes, TomEE, Meecrowave etc fill the sweet spot which is interesting
>> for 85% of apps.
>>
>> I also do not have a problem with the missing TCK. Of course it would be
>> better to have one. But the only real progress is currently in CDI and BVal
>> and those TCKs are available under ALv2 even.
>>
>> The main problem imo is that the Geronimo server part is not actively
>> maintained anymore and OSGi is not a really good fit for JavaEE anyway. Not
>> that OSGi itself is bad, but it's not a good fit.
>> Don't get me wrong, the Geronimo AppServer was a big step 14 years ago,
>> and all the people involved in this effort back then layed a rock solid
>> fundament for all that came after that. But the architecture is still quite
>> outdated imo and it didn't get maintained for way too long.
>>
>>
>> Otoh there is really a lot of good technology available inside the
>> geronimo project.
>>
>> * geronimo-jta
>> * javamail
>> * xbean (including finder, scanner etc)
>> * the specs
>> and quite a few other nice parts and they still get committs and love.
>>
>> I'd definitly keep them alive.
>>
>> I'm aware that quite some older PMC members have historically been
>> interested in the Geronimo AppServer and not in maintaining the ee-commons
>> part of the geronimo project.
>> But instead of dumping the whole project I'd say we just retire the
>> Geronimo AppServer and consolidate and focus on the single pieces. There
>> are potentially other things like Sirona-incubating which we could move
>> over as sub-projects even.
>>
>> Of course I perfectly understand if some of the older PMC members which
>> are not interested in the adopted roadmap want to retire.
>>
>> txs for all the hard work!
>>
>> LieGrue,
>> strub
>>
>>
>> > Am 07.03.2017 um 22:44 schrieb Alan Cabrera <list@toolazydogs.com>:
>> >
>> > IMO, consultants and researchers are the earthworms of a vibrant OS
>> community that meets the standards sought after at the ASF.  I don’t see
>> how we’re going to attract them.  While the ideas posited on the mailing
>> lists are pretty interesting, I just don’t see any of the ideas attracting
>> a larger active community.  The reasons for this are
>> >       • the lack of interest in JEE
>> >       • inability to use a reasonably current JEE TCK
>> >       • the size and age of the legacy code base
>> >       • project members unable to commit time resources to mentor new
>> members
>> > When one reads about JEE not being “dead yet”, one is actually reading
>> about a very small subset of the JEE spec.  To be sure, there are
>> interesting problems still to be solved within certain silos of JEE.  I
>> can’t think of anything that would apply to the entire pantheon of JEE
>> bits; imo TomEE is already focused on the sweet spot of JEE bits that are
>> still relevant.  One is hard pressed to think of any JEE sub-system in
>> Geronimo that is not already separate project. The reality is that Geronimo
>> was an amalgam of OSS projects and the industry has preserved those JEE
>> bits that are still relevant.  The "value add", in no small part, of
>> Geronimo was the comprehensive testing of the JEE pantheon in toto via the
>> TCK.
>> >
>> > Given that we cannot use a reasonably current JEE TCK, the project is
>> prevented from engaging in a role of JEE-commons of sorts.  Frankly, even
>> if we were to get the current JEE TCK, nobody really cares anymore and, as
>> I mentioned above, the interesting JEE bits are already being worked on
>> elsewhere with their own specific TCKs.
>> >
>> > The size and age of the codebase makes it virtually impenetrable.  When
>> one precludes spec commits, I think the last real commit has been about a
>> half a decade ago; I wouldn’t be surprised if it was longer.  I personally
>> have been knee deep in it recently but find spelunking through it very
>> daunting.  I’d rather spend any free time I have in some greenfield
>> endeavor.
>> >
>> > I’m certain that other project members and passersby are of the same
>> mind.  Since I have such little time to do greenfield coding, I have even
>> less time to mentor someone who is interested in tinkering with the code
>> base.  I’ve no doubt that others are of the same mind on this as well;
>> witness the dearth of replies to inquiries on this list.
>> >
>> > There is a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in this project.  I, for one,
>> am honored to have been able to work with the world’s brightest coders on
>> the planet.  I have a lot of great memories, and hangovers, of our once
>> vibrant community and it’s very hard for me to start this thread.  I think
>> we should shutdown.  If anyone had a real interest in any kind of
>> resurrection it would have happened by now.
>> >
>> > If we have consensus on moving to the Attic, I will start a vote.  How
>> things are “wound down” will be discussed in a separate thread, soon to
>> follow.
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Alan Cabrera
>> > V.P. Apache Geronimo
>> >
>> > P.S.  Please resist the urge hop in and administer CPR.  Before jumping
>> on the table, be brutally honest and ask yourself if you are operating on
>> actionable facts, or fond well earned memories.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>

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