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From Mark Struberg <strub...@yahoo.de>
Subject Re: Discuss: Move Geronimo to Attic
Date Sun, 12 Mar 2017 19:01:10 GMT
Hi Alan!

There are quite a few things which fit into this scenario imo.

I think we really miss some 'toolbox project' for EE components at the ASF.
There was a tendency to make all those projects own TLPs for some time. But that approach
simply doesn't scale, and we end up with the same people in most of those projects anyway.

So moving the ones with lower activity into a common TLP would solve this problem. Geronimo
could probably become this project. 

There are a lot old EE folks around which have tremendous knowledge. And there are certain
technologies which are really cool, but have the classical EE-lifecycle up-down in terms of
activity.
That + the already existing components could be a great chance.

As you already said yourself: the terms of the big fat EE servers is over. But nevertheless
the technology and requirement behind most of the single parts is still valid and often unbeaten.

But nowadays it's more about making it easy to plug & play those technology libs together
more freely as they are needed. Thus moving the focus on maintaining the components and not
the server could be really appreciated by the community.

You said there will be community if there is a need. I fully agree, and even more I see a
need for those parts.

LieGrue,
strub

> Am 12.03.2017 um 19:15 schrieb Alan Cabrera <list@toolazydogs.com>:
> 
> After a good night’s sleep, I re-read this thread and I’ll respond without trying
to guide you in where and how you decide to go with your efforts; thanks in advance for letting
me reboot my reply.  :)
> 
> Any pivot that this community decides upon, will have to be justified to the ASF board.
 We will need to explain what will be different and justify how it will generate sustainable
community activity.  With regards to that, I have two general concerns:
> 	• Will this this specific endeavor generate any new sustainable community activity?

> 	• Will any new activity of this specific endeavor represent activity that is unique
to Geronimo or are we doing the chores of other projects to provide the appearance of activity?
> The current level activity, is due to spec maintenance for downstream dependencies and
we must admit that it is quite low.  Being an upstream “aggregator” does not provide appreciable
added value at the cost of the doubled administration.  The specter of duplicate work will,
in reality, never arise; this de facto efficiency is due to the awesomeness of the ASL 2.0
license.  The case for being an aggregator weakens even more given the fact that there just
isn't a lot of work involved in maintaining specs.
> 
> Things aren’t much better for the shared sub-systems.  If there was something compelling
that needed to be done on the shared sub-systems, it would have been begun already; given
the industry’s penchant for greenfield development (NIH) I doubt they will ever be revamped.
> 
> This is why I went on my “need” soapbox.  Some new need must be found for Geronimo
to provide.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Alan
> 
> 
>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 8:49 AM, Romain Manni-Bucau <rmannibucau@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I have quite a hard time to understand why it is an issue having a project led by
the aggregation of others and not by itself? Assume one sec we close Geronimo or it doesnt
exist, then we'll move the bit of code in one of the project - let say tomee - and tomee will
becomes the exact same kind of project. The alternative is to split in a lot of small projects
but as mentionned a lot of overlap is in these projects in term of forces and it doesn't work
really better, it just multiply the work load for each contributor. That's why I think G is
not a bad solution as it is today. Scope surely needs to be refined like Mark started to do
and objectives are clearly a bit different than a project pushing its own server/solution
but I think there is a space for it and for Apache I think it is saner this way.
>> 
>> 
>> Romain Manni-Bucau
>> @rmannibucau |  Blog | Old Blog | Github | LinkedIn | JavaEE Factory
>> 
>> 2017-03-09 17:01 GMT+01:00 Alan Cabrera <list@toolazydogs.com>:
>> It has been my personal experience that need is the catalyst for a vibrant OSS project.
 The product and community spring forth from that.  Adopting an “if we build it they will
come” tactic does not usually result in success.  Rather than rummaging through the trunk
to see what bits people might be attracted to, maybe it might be better to look at the existing
JEE-related OSS communities out there and ask “what need are they not fulfilling?”
>> 
>> That would answer passersby’s questions of “why would I be interested in this
project?”  
>> 
>> That would be a slam dunk to present to the ASF board, “Geronimo is now focused
on fulfilling a new need, X”.
>> 
>> What unfulfilled need is out there?
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 7:04 AM, Mark Struberg <struberg@yahoo.de> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I totally agree.
>>> 
>>> But interest from the community is always a product of a good product and feature
roadmap.
>>> Without any good product you will not be able to build a sustainable community
around it.
>>> 
>>> Of course there are many things which can trash a community despite a good product.
But without product there is no community.
>>> At the end we are not here only because the people are great, but because we
see a benefit in the product we create in this project - AND the people are great ;)
>>> 
>>> So my first goal was to identify the features which might be of interest.
>>> The next step is to check whether there is enough community interest in those
features or whether we could move then to another community. Ideally with still using the
org.apache.geronimo groupId and packages. Otherwise it would be quite some problem for the
users.
>>> 
>>> LieGrue,
>>> strub
>>> 
>>>> Am 09.03.2017 um 14:46 schrieb Alex Karasulu <akarasulu@apache.org>:
>>>> 
>>>> I think more important than whether or not JEE is popular (or whatever along
those lines), are the questions about community health and is the PMC still capable of fulfilling
its duties.
>>>> 
>>>> My 2 cents,
>>>> --Alex
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 12:08 PM, Mark Struberg <struberg@yahoo.de>
wrote:
>>>> Romain and I went through the Geronimo SVN and made a list of which components
are used by other projects.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Useful Geronimo components from https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/geronimo/
>>>> 
>>>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/geronimo/KEYS
>>>> 
>>>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/geronimo/components/txmanager
>>>>        • TomEE (txmgr+connector)
>>>>        • Meecrowave (txmgr)
>>>>        • Aries (txmgr)
>>>> 
>>>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/geronimo/components/geronimo-schema-javaee_6
>>>> 
>>>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/geronimo/genesis/
>>>>        • Maven parents for geronimo-specs
>>>> 
>>>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/geronimo/javamail/
>>>>        • TomEE as delivery
>>>>        • Lot of standalone
>>>>        • -> we can ask Hendrik pby
>>>> 
>>>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/geronimo/specs/
>>>>        • TomEE
>>>>        • OpenWebBeans
>>>>        • Meecrowave
>>>>        • OpenJPA
>>>>        • Johnzon
>>>>        • BatchEE
>>>>        • Karaf
>>>>        • Aries
>>>>        • Tons of external customer projects which don’t want to use some
official javax jars due to licensing concerns
>>>> 
>>>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/geronimo/xbean/
>>>>        • TomEE
>>>>        • OpenWebBeans
>>>>        • Meecrowave
>>>>        • Aries
>>>>        • Karaf
>>>>        • OpenJPA
>>>>        • CXF (supported)
>>>> 
>>>> Osgi-locator too but guess this one can drop and belong to karaf or servicemix.
>>>> Q: well we need the osgi locator in our geronimo-specs, isn’t?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I've created a google doc. Just ping me if you want to edit something and
I'll share it.
>>>> 
>>>> David, you mentioned JASPIC. I could not find that even. Is this inside the
geronimo-server probably?
>>>> Are there other gems which are not maintained as components but just inside
geronimo?
>>>> 
>>>> txs and LieGrue,
>>>> strub
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Am 09.03.2017 um 08:44 schrieb David Jencks <david.a.jencks@gmail.com>:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I go back and forth on whether to shut G down completely.  Perhaps it
would be useful to inventory which parts are used by which other projects? Off the top of
my head….
>>>>> 
>>>>> Specs …. who uses G’s and who has their own?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Components…. I think there are several users of the transaction manager,
I don’t know about the connector framework, and I’m pretty sure no one uses my jaspic
implementation.  The TM is stable but now that faster than spinning rust persistent memory
is popular the logger could probably be rewritten to be much faster.
>>>>> 
>>>>> xbean …. tomee I believe, anyone else?  Does activemq still use xbean-spring?
 Knowing more about osgi now I might be able to gets xbean-blueprint to work:-)
>>>>> 
>>>>> yoko is used by IBM, I doubt anyone else will get all excited about CORBA
and start contributing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Any other bits being used?
>>>>> 
>>>>> If we kept G around in a reduced state, how will we maintain enough interest
to file the board reports?  Some days  I think I might have enough interest and some days
not.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If we did not shut down the whole project would we mark the removed bits
(server primarily) as not being developed or move them to the attic?
>>>>> 
>>>>> thanks
>>>>> david jencks
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 8, 2017, at 11:15 PM, Romain Manni-Bucau <rmannibucau@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> A valid point is activity related to G happens elsewhere, However
elsewhere is not "tomee" which would make things simple to move but A, B, C so shutting down
G is likely the easiest solution for G itself but also the worse for all its dependent projects
- and ASF consistency since G is now seen as the owner of specs, xbean etc....Today G is the
result of communities and I don't see it as a bad thing even if not common @ASF. It allows
new interactions with sometimes completely different area of knowledge which is actually great
and can't happen elsewhere IMHO (the dead of G would mean fork per project probably).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Romain Manni-Bucau
>>>>>> @rmannibucau |  Blog | Old Blog | Github | LinkedIn | JavaEE Factory
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 2017-03-09 5:13 GMT+01:00 Matt Hogstrom <matt@hogstrom.org>:
>>>>>> I’ve monitored G for several years since my departure.  For me,
JEE is not my main area of focus and as such, I’ve invested little time in the project apart
from reading the e-mail threads.  This is a community decision and posting the discussion
to dev@ is the right venue.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As an inactive member I don’t have a strong vote, but, my observation
is that most of the community has moved on and there is little activity.  If those that are
still active want to keep going then God’s speed.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Matt Hogstrom
>>>>>> matt@hogstrom.org
>>>>>> +1-919-656-0564
>>>>>> PGP Key: 0x90ECB270
>>>>>> Facebook  LinkedIn  Twitter
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "I’m smart enough to know how dumb I am."
>>>>>> -  Hogstrom
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mar 9, 2017, at 08:47, Jason Dillon <jdillon@apache.org>
wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On March 8, 2017 at 10:44:45 AM, Mark Struberg (struberg@yahoo.de)
wrote:
>>>>>>>> Alan, I understand that you don't want to put much more energy
into this project. That is totally understandable and fine.
>>>>>>>> But while you are PMC chair you still cannot declare that
the project is dead as long as there are enough PMC members still active to keep the project
going.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mark, I agree with Alan and Kevan, though put into my own words
I think the project and community is no longer viable (and has not been for a while).  I do
believe there are still useful aspects to the project, but I don’t think its enough to leave
on its own.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> We can certainly wait for more PMC members to chime in if they
are still monitoring.  As Jeff recommended I’m including the private@ list for PMC folks
that may not be paying as much attention to the dev@ list.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Before we dump the project I suggest we start with an analysis
of where we are right now.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> What about starting look into
>>>>>>>> .) Who is still active and willing to continue Geronimo as
a ee-commons project?
>>>>>>> So far I’ve not really seen anyone over the past days of communication
about this.  But we’ll see.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> —jason
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> .) Which project parts of the project are of some shared
interest and might be good to get some maintenance love and some realistic chance that this
is gonna happening?
>>>>>>> I can’t speak for the others, but I have zero interested in
putting any love in to any of what is presently here.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I will defer to others to explain if they feel otherwise, though
I do recall some chatter on private@ but will probably need those folks to re-post to dev@
to include that discussion.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> —jason
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> -- Alex
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 


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