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From Joe Bohn <joe.b...@earthlink.net>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] enhance the assemble server portlet usability
Date Tue, 26 Aug 2008 02:11:58 GMT
David Jencks wrote:
> 
> On Aug 25, 2008, at 3:25 PM, Joe Bohn wrote:
> 
>> Jay D. McHugh wrote:
>>> Hey all,
>>> I have been trying to get my thought straight on profiles/templates.
>>> And, I think I just might have done it (we'll see).  Warning, there is
>>> very little 'implementation' here - mostly food for thought.
>>> First of all, I think that it would be useful to have several ways of
>>> thinking about groups of modules.  Right now, we have maven artifacts
>>> and plugins (that are groups of artifacts).  In this discussion, we are
>>> trying to figure out how to divide/build up a server.  And, the idea of
>>> profiles came up to group plugins that are necessary for a particular
>>> function.
>>> So far, I like everything about the direction that the discussion is
>>> going.  But, I have two ideas that I think might improve the
>>> managability of server building/configuration.
>>> The first involves adding a list of profiles that the different
>>> Gernonimo modules/artifacts would 'satisfy' into the pom's.  That would
>>> enable us to stay away from manually building/rebuilding the list of
>>> default included ('provided by Geronimo') profiles.
>>> The second would be to add one more level of grouping artifacts -
>>> templates.  The idea would be that profiles group modules that provide a
>>> particular function and templates would group profiles that (when
>>> combined) provide a particular server.
>>
>>
>> I think I'm getting a little lost in the terms here.  IIUC you are 
>> using the following groupings (from the most comprehensive to the least):
>>
>> Templates (server definitions) contain Profiles
>> Profiles (groupings of plugins) contain Plugins
>> Plugins contain Geronimo modules/artifacts
>> modules/artifacts - core building blocks of Geronimo
>>
>> I've oversimplified a bit but I think that is logical grouping you are 
>> proposing .... Is that correct?
>>
>> If it is, then I think your 1st idea above is to include the knowledge 
>> of containment in the child rather the parent.  So would I be correct 
>> in assuming that you are proposing adding the knowledge of profile 
>> membership into the plugins (rather than modules/artifacts)?  I don't 
>> have an opinion on that yet ... just trying to understand.
> 
> I missed that and don't see how it would work.  If I come up with a new 
> template or profile tomorrow, how will the current plugins know if they 
> are in it or not?
> 
> As I tried to say before, hierarchy is good but we already have 
> unlimited nesting in plugins.... we just need to fix a little bit of goo 
> so they don't result in excess classloaders at runtime.
>>
>>
>>> For example, right now, we provide five distinct 'flavors' of Geronimo:
>>> minimal (framework), little-G (tomcat), little-G (jetty), JEE5 (tomcat),
>>> and JEE5 (jetty).  Those would correspond to five 'provided' templates
>>> for Geronimo.
>>> As an (extremely oversimplified) example, here is what the little-G
>>> template might look like:
>>> <template id='little-g-tomcat'>
>>>  <description>Geronimo Tomcat Little-G Server</description>
>>>  <version>2.1.2</version>
>>>  <includesProfile>
>>>    <!-- full function profiles -->
>>>    <profile id='geronimo framework' version='x.x' />
>>>    <profile id='tomcat web container' version='x.x' />
>>>  </includesProfile>
>>>  <includesPlugin>
>>>    <!-- individual plugins, either provided or 'customer specific' -->
>>>  </includesPlugin>
>>>  <includesArtifact>
>>>    <!-- individual libraries -->
>>>  </includesArtifact>
>>> </template
>>> A template like this would be relatively easy for either a program or
>>> user to build and allows for almost unlimited customizability in
>>> describing what should go into building a server.  Then, rather than
>>> having our server assembly portlet actually do the work of making an
>>> actual server - it could simply output the template.  Or, we could have
>>> a new option that would allow for template creation and export (ie:
>>> export current server as template).
>>> Then we could either check the currently assembled server against the
>>> template (and pull down whatever profiles/plugins are needed) or have a
>>> 'load template' function that would apply the template to a new
>>> (presumably framework only) server.
>>
>> This notion of a template is exactly in line with what we had 
>> discussed before and what I brought up again a few days ago.  It is 
>> basically a definition of a server in "thin" format.  I keep thinking 
>> of it in xml (like you referenced above) but it could be in some other 
>> format.  The idea was that you could use this template and some 
>> utility to enhance a framework server and turn it into whatever kind 
>> of server you want it to be.  The utility would be nothing more than 
>> something that could read the template, drill down to the appropriate 
>> set of plugins, and install them along with any other configuration 
>> necessary for the server.  The actual plugins that are installed (also 
>> groupings of plugins for simplification) could be in some local 
>> toolkit repo we ship with Geronimo or in remote repositories we make 
>> available when we release a server version (as we do today).
> 
> You can get a plugin to install just about anything you want already.  
> The tomcat plugin installs the tomcat config under var, there are some 
> instructions in the wiki on how to install application specific logging, 
> etc etc.  There are also some ways to customize preexisting 
> configuration (such as config.xml) that we use in the tck servers.... 
> can't remember exactly how it works though.
>>
>>
>> I prefer this approach because it encourages portability and 
>> predictability.  You can generate a template and then use it to create 
>> many server images which should be identical.  Thought must be given 
>> when creating the template.  However, creating multiple server images 
>> is then a fairly simple process from the user perspective.  If we can 
>> come up with a version independent way to specify the Geronimo 
>> dependencies then this can be portable across server releases so that 
>> the user can potentially use the template they generated for a 
>> particular server image in 2.2.1 and generate a comparable server 
>> image for 2.2.2.  I wouldn't anticipate that we could make this 
>> portable across major releases but I would hope we could make it 
>> portable across minor releases.  We don't necessarily need to tackle 
>> the upgrade scenario now but I think the template approach sets the 
>> stage for some possibilities.
> 
> I really don't think we should encourage leaving out the versions.  it's 
> a bit maven centric but maven can substitute versions when constructing 
> a geronimo-plugin.xml.  I'm sure there are other ways.

I guess the other way is what you have mentioned before ... substitute 
the version when installing the plugin (via aliases).

> 
> I may not be understanding what you are saying.  It seems to me that 
> what we're talking about is basically turning the lists of plugins now 
> in the assembly poms into independent artifacts that can be used by the 
> car-maven-plugin to assemble servers, and also from other spots such as 
> gshell and maybe the console.  We're can do this today with the existing 
> plugin mechanism although it has a few bad side effects which we should 
> be able to eliminate pretty easily.

Right. I think the approach that you and Lin have been discussing to use 
the existing plugin mechanism and extend the function in the 
car-maven-plugin (and gshell/console) makes a lot of sense.  I think the 
concept of a plugin that is just an arbitrary container of other plugins 
(nested multiple levels) can be used in a variety of helpful ways:

1) It can be used to create these "profiles" of logical sets of plugins 
that make sense together for easy selection/installation by users.
2) A user can use the same feature to create their own profiles of 
functions base upon their own components.  For example, a user could 
create a shopping cart, bookstore, and electronics store profiles.  They 
could then combine/install these on servers to manage their book 
business, electronic business, or both on any combination of servers.
3) The profiles can be persisted, reused, and shared among users (just 
like regular plugins).
4) It can be used to construct entire collections of components that 
define a cohesive set of function for a server.  This can then be 
installed on a framework assembly to produce consistent/repeatable 
server images (such as our javaee5 server or some subset such as a web 
service only server image).
5) It might be able to be used to create a consistent server image 
across server released when modified (via automation or manually) to 
accommodate differences between the old and new server versions.  This 
can potentially provide an upgrade path for our users that have created 
custom assemblies.

I think this function is more general than just what is needed for 
"assemble a server".  However, in that specific context we could do the 
following:
- Let a user choose plugins, profile plugins (for lack of a better term) 
or whatever from which they would like to create a server image.
- Produce another profile plugin that includes the total selection 
instead of (or in addition to) creating a server image.
- The user could then save/publish/whatever the profile plugin.
- The profile plugin could be installed into a framework server image to 
convert it into the specific server that was desired.
- Of course, the real function (what we know as plugins now) would be 
installed from a repository - either local or remote.


This kinda gets at one of the things that has been nagging me about the 
"assemble a server" discussion ... that being that a user must select 
some core set of plugins to create a viable server image.  This always 
seemed a bit foreign to me because all along I've been thinking that 
assembling a server would always start with a core framework assembly 
which included the necessary core function (such as the ability to 
install plugins).  That was originally the purpose of the framework 
assembly and I ensured that you could install plugins into it way back 
when.  I think (but I might be wrong) that starting with a framework 
assembly when creating a new server assembly should make it easier to 
make a pure template/profile plugin because you don't need to worry 
about any core server capability.  All of the core stuff should already 
be included in server image used as the starting point.  A user would 
only need to install particular features on top of that to create the 
specific flavor of server they desire.  And, these features could be 
combined to create a server image that has the nature of multiple 
profiles.  From a user perspective it's all the same.  He can build up a 
server by installing plugins - some very small in granularity and other 
quite large (perhaps large enough to pull in everything they want in the 
server image with one selection).

I've rambled enough for now ... and I hope it isn't all lunacy.
thanks,
Joe



> 
> thanks
> david jencks
> 
> 
>>
>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>> Jay
>>> Lin Sun wrote:
>>>> Here is what I am thinking.   Let me take the Web profile as an 
>>>> example:
>>>>
>>>> So we want to allow users to check/select the Web profile to select
>>>> all the necessary geronimo plugins for little G.   Users would only
>>>> see Web profile, instead the 10+ geronimo plugins.
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>>> Select from the following Profiles/Plugin Groups:
>>>> __ Web (when this selected, we'll install the 10+ geronimo plugins for
>>>> the user to get little G env.)
>>>> __ Web Service
>>>> ...
>>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> In order to do this, we'll need to know which geronimo plugins can get
>>>> the users to the Web profile and store this relatonship somewhere that
>>>> is avail for both admin console and command line custom assembly.   I
>>>> come to the conclusion that we need some sort of group of plugins
>>>> function and David reminded me about the geronimo-plugin.xml that has
>>>> no module-id can work as group of plugins.   Here is the wording from
>>>> the schema:
>>>>
>>>> If no module-id is provided, that means this is a plugin group, which
>>>> is just a list of other plugins to install.
>>>>
>>>> With that, I can just build a geronimo plugin group for web profile
>>>> and have the 10+ geronimo plugins listed as dependencies.   This
>>>> geronimo plugin group can be available as part of the assmebly, along
>>>> with the other geronimo plugin groups.
>>>>
>>>> The idea is that if a user selects Web profile in either admin console
>>>> or command line, we can just select the corresponding geronimo plugin
>>>> group behind the scene, which would install all its dependencies.
>>>>
>>>> Now back to the web services sample, we 'll have 2 web service 
>>>> plugin groups:
>>>>
>>>> web service CXF - cxf and cxf-deployer
>>>> web service Axis2 - axis2 and axis2-deployer
>>>>
>>>> The web service Jetty plugin group will be included in the jetty
>>>> javaee5 assembly and web service tomcat plugin group will be included
>>>> in the tomcat javaee5 assembly.   Initially, I plan to only support
>>>> custom server assembly from the current local server, so when user has
>>>> jetty assembly, he will see web service CXF.   When user has tomcat
>>>> assembly, he'll see web service Axis2.   In the long run, we could
>>>> present both to the users and they can just pick either one.
>>>>
>>>> I hope above addressed your questions.   Please feel free to let me
>>>> know any other comments you may have.
>>>>
>>>> Lin
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Jarek Gawor <jgawor@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hmm.. I'm not sure how this profile idea fits in with what the user
>>>>> have to select in the "assemble a server" portlet. Would there be a
>>>>> profile for axis2 that only has two plugins axis2 and axis2-deployer
>>>>> defined? And there would be a similar profile with two plugins for
>>>>> cxf? And the user would either pick the axis2 or cxf profile and
>>>>> combine it with the jetty or tomcat profile? I'm just not sure how
>>>>> this relates to the steps the user would have to go through in the
>>>>> portlet to create the desired server.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jarek
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Lin Sun <linsun.unc@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>> I have been thinking a bit more on how we achieve this.   Here is
my
>>>>>> idea and I welcome your input -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So we have a need to allow users to install groups of 
>>>>>> plugins(function
>>>>>> profile), instead of individual plugins.   Install individual plugins
>>>>>> are nice for standalone apps, but for system modules, I think it

>>>>>> would
>>>>>> be better to allow users to install groups of plugins as functional
>>>>>> profiles(unless the user is an expert user).    What we need is to
>>>>>> expose the groups of plugins for certain functions available to our
>>>>>> users and allow them to select the ones of their interest to build

>>>>>> the
>>>>>> customer server.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am proposing in addition to store plugin metadata of each plugin
in
>>>>>> the plugin catalog, we could also host installable groups of plugins
>>>>>> information there (or in a separate catalog file).   For example,
for
>>>>>> a function such as Web (same as little G) that has been discussed
in
>>>>>> above posts, we could have the following plugin metadata -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <geronimo-plugin 
>>>>>> xmlns="http://geronimo.apache.org/xml/ns/plugins-1.3"
>>>>>> xmlns:ns2="http://geronimo.apache.org/xml/ns/attributes-1.2">
>>>>>>   <name>Geronimo Assemblies :: Minimal + Tomcat</name>
>>>>>>   <category>WEB Profile</category>
>>>>>>   <profile>true</profile>
>>>>>>   <description>A minimal Geronimo server (Little-G) assembly
using
>>>>>> the Tomcat web-container.</description>
>>>>>>   <url>http://www.apache.org/</url>
>>>>>>   <author>Apache Software Foundation</author>
>>>>>>   <license osi-approved="true">The Apache Software License,
Version
>>>>>> 2.0</license>
>>>>>>   <plugin-artifact>
>>>>>>       <module-id>
>>>>>>           <groupId>org.apache.geronimo.assemblies</groupId>
>>>>>>           <artifactId>geronimo-tomcat6-minimal</artifactId>
>>>>>>           <version>2.2-SNAPSHOT</version>
>>>>>>           <type>car</type>
>>>>>>       </module-id>
>>>>>>       <geronimo-version>2.2-SNAPSHOT</geronimo-version>
>>>>>>       <jvm-version>1.5</jvm-version>
>>>>>>       <jvm-version>1.6</jvm-version>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       <dependency>
>>>>>>           <groupId>org.apache.geronimo.assemblies</groupId>
>>>>>>           <artifactId>geronimo-boilderplate-minimal</artifactId>
>>>>>>           <version>2.2-SNAPSHOT</version>
>>>>>>           <type>jar</type>
>>>>>>       </dependency>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       <dependency start="false">
>>>>>>           <groupId>org.apache.geronimo.framework</groupId>
>>>>>>           <artifactId>upgrade-cli</artifactId>
>>>>>>           <version>2.2-SNAPSHOT</version>
>>>>>>           <type>car</type>
>>>>>>       </dependency>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       <dependency start="true">
>>>>>>           <groupId>org.apache.geronimo.framework</groupId>
>>>>>>           <artifactId>rmi-naming</artifactId>
>>>>>>           <version>2.2-SNAPSHOT</version>
>>>>>>           <type>car</type>
>>>>>>       </dependency>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       <dependency start="true">
>>>>>>           <groupId>org.apache.geronimo.framework</groupId>
>>>>>>           <artifactId>j2ee-security</artifactId>
>>>>>>           <version>2.2-SNAPSHOT</version>
>>>>>>           <type>car</type>
>>>>>>       </dependency>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       <dependency start="true">
>>>>>>           <groupId>org.apache.geronimo.configs</groupId>
>>>>>>           <artifactId>tomcat6</artifactId>
>>>>>>           <version>2.2-SNAPSHOT</version>
>>>>>>           <type>car</type>
>>>>>>       </dependency>
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When a plugin is a profile, it means it just contains a group of
>>>>>> geronimo plugin dependencies that are installable and can perform
>>>>>> certain functions.  By installing it, it will simply install the
>>>>>> dependency plugins.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Questions -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How do we build this profile type of plugin?   We could build them
>>>>>> manually initially to try things but maybe c-m-p could be used here.
>>>>>> How do we install this profile type of plugin?  I think we could
>>>>>> leverage the pluginInstallerGBean to install it...when profile is
>>>>>> true, we just download the dependencies.
>>>>>> How/Where should we make this file avail?   We could make this file
>>>>>> avail in geronimo-plugins.xml (or another catalog file in repo) and
>>>>>> with our server assembly (one assembly contains the plugin 
>>>>>> profiles it
>>>>>> have).  When building customer server, when load all the plugins
that
>>>>>> are profile and ask users to pick which ones they want.   If we 
>>>>>> have a
>>>>>> framework that can install geronimo plugins, a user can just download
>>>>>> the framework and pick from our apache repo on which plugin profiles
>>>>>> they want to build their geronimo server.
>>>>>> How are we handle the upgrade scenarios Joe mentioned?   No idea
>>>>>> yet... I think this is a rather complicated scenario.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lin
>>>>>>
>>
> 
> 


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