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From Tim McConnell <>
Subject Re: Removing specific sample references on the Welcome Page?
Date Sat, 12 Jul 2008 02:20:14 GMT
Thanks for hearing me out Joe. Your inclination to point the user to the wiki 
seems like a reasonable solution....

the detailed entries seems like a good

Joe Bohn wrote:
> Tim McConnell wrote:
>> Hi Joe, if I put my end-user hat on and I click on any sample/example 
>> link on the Geronimo server's welcome page I would expect it to work 
>> out of the box, or I'm not going to be overly impressed. So if I 
>> continue this train of thought, it seems like any examples on this 
>> page should actually be packaged-with, shipped-with, tested-with, and 
>> released-with, the server. That way they would have to always work, or 
>> otherwise the server couldn't be released. An explicit install action 
>> for these examples probably is probably okay but to depend on an 
>> artifact that must have been released to an external repository at 
>> another time isn't okay, since again as an end-user I expect it to 
>> work out of the box, and as you've just demonstrated they may not (for 
>> various reasons). So, why not mitigate these problems and if the need 
>> to be installed, just install them from say an "examples" subdirectory 
>> that is again packaged with the server ?? No need for an internet 
>> connection, no dependency on an external repo, etc...
> I agree.  In fact, this is one of the reasons that I was in favor of 
> moving the samples back into trunk svn ... but I was giving some ground 
> up by stating that the didn't need to be packaged with the server ... 
> concerned out image size and such.  However, I think you are correct 
> that samples that are installed directly from the welcome app seem to 
> imply that they are local and hence should be packaged with the server. 
>  This is another reason why we should remove them from the welcome app 
> if we don't plan to release and package them together.
>> I know your probably don't want/need another alternative to your other 
>> devlist thread, but maybe just for the sake of this email I demarcate 
>> between examples and samples. Where "examples" ship with and are 
>> packaged with the server, and can be executed directly from the 
>> "Welcome page". It may be true that this class of examples are 
>> so-called simple examples. But so what, they'll always work because 
>> they have to, there would be no need for a separate release process 
>> for them, they could grow them over time, and we could always be 
>> confident of the end-user impression they'll convey...... And where 
>> "samples" are pretty much an arduous subset of the samples we have 
>> today with all their incumbent problems you've grown to love, and 
>> where we might only provide links from the "Welcome Page" to a 
>> Geronimo URL which would then require an internet connect, a separate 
>> release process, an external repo, etc....
> I see where you are headed and I partially agree.  However, I see two 
> issues:
> 1) Packaging examples is great for a development environment but not 
> very optimal for a production server. Hence, if we grow the server size 
> with packaged samples our production users would probably have to 
> manually remove them or build their own server image.  While that might 
> be a good way to encourage users to create custom server images I'm not 
> sure it would be well received.  I think we have already received some 
> grief for the welcome app itself (esp. since it uses the / context) and 
> we direct users to remove it if necessary.
> 2) It's a rather fuzzy distinction between samples and examples.  I can 
> see confusion from users on where to look for function x as well as from 
>  Geronimo developers when wondering how to demonstrate some function. Is 
> it an example or a sample?
> I guess I'm still inclined to just remove the detailed entries and point 
> the users to the wiki for information on samples and how to go about 
> getting/installing/playing with them.
>> Joe Bohn wrote:
>>> The Geronimo welcome page (http://localhost:8080/) has long included 
>>> links under a header of Geronimo Examples.
>>> Under this header are the following 3 links:
>>> - Servlet Examples
>>> - JSP Examples
>>> - LDAP Demo
>>> - Additional Samples
>>> I'd like to remove the first 3 links and rename the last link to 
>>> simply "Samples" for trunk and branches/2.1 (prior to the 2.1.2 
>>> release).  The last link takes you to a page  on our wiki that lists 
>>> doc links for the samples per release ... I think that is more 
>>> appropriate.
>>> The first 3 links present another html page from the local server 
>>> that contains text similar to this:
>>> This sample has not been installed yet. If this server can connect to 
>>> the internet, click here to install and connect to the sample 
>>> application. It will take a few minutes to download and install the 
>>> sample and then load it.
>>> Those 3 links present some problems (and currently don't work for 2.1 
>>> or 2.1.1 that have already been released).
>>> - Clicking the install link attempts to connect to a repository and 
>>> initiate a install of the specified sample.
>>> - The repository is not always as desired.  For me it defaults to my 
>>> local maven2 repo.
>>> - The current component IDs are incorrect.  That's easy enough to 
>>> change but I suspect there would still be issues (see the next points).
>>> - Even if it linked to the correct repo for the release, there would 
>>> still be a period of time after a server release when the samples are 
>>> not yet available in the repository.
>>> - The LDAP demo requires some additional setup now because we no 
>>> longer include Directory in the initial server image ... hence this 
>>> gives a false impression that simply clicking on the link will make 
>>> the example functional.
>>> Given these problem and the fact that is has been broken for several 
>>> releases. I'd like to remove the specific server example links from 
>>> the welcome page before we ship 2.1.2.  Any objections?
>>> Joe

Tim McConnell

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