Mailing-List: contact dev-help@geronimo.apache.org; run by ezmlm
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: dev@geronimo.apache.org
Received-SPF: pass (asf.osuosl.org: domain of davanum@gmail.com designates
 64.233.184.235 as permitted sender)
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
        s=beta; d=gmail.com;
        h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references;
        b=cYL1GOT+cqTb5MMbMYeqxAJ+AogX/wK5Jz1d0KuILH+oH6/bsBg17bQqu4qMDtFHd6OE8uW/p2UfwZCC7AdOJ/52iYtGDj2pQKcstoG794BJ9RWOs8ZqGhMAz3+1TnR345SmWIXYpRjv+xQvuZT2B9z+AAowHD+PFHYJRLMW8xk=
Message-ID: <19e0530f0606092222rc2b1f5x5a2f5e166a156311@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 01:22:33 -0400
From: "Davanum Srinivas" <davanum@gmail.com>
Reply-To: dims@apache.org
To: "Aaron Mulder" <ammulder@alumni.princeton.edu>
Subject: Re: Frustrations of a Release Manager
Cc: dev@geronimo.apache.org
In-Reply-To: <74e15baa0606091618u79e5c6ffj73d5824dc05fd95@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
References: <4488B55B.9010302@hogstrom.org>
	 <7b3355cb0606082337x246b7b90p56626e739433231f@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4489713F.9030701@apache.org>
	 <74e15baa0606090634y151633fw1f38eb0023a648f9@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4489A38B.3000209@hogstrom.org>
	 <74e15baa0606091006s1702feecrfa95f6ff7b7f43af@mail.gmail.com>
	 <19e0530f0606091110k366069bat33e1afa0fb170ffb@mail.gmail.com>
	 <7b3355cb0606091131n5e122af9lf27fb2431de6f635@mail.gmail.com>
	 <19e0530f0606091503t18e58735i2733a9ae86baab17@mail.gmail.com>
	 <74e15baa0606091618u79e5c6ffj73d5824dc05fd95@mail.gmail.com>

Aaron,

The info was available publicly more than a week ago (If one know what
to look for..):
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?view=rev&revision=411036

I presume that the expectation of the board and the pmc chair is for
us to figure out things for ourselves. If we expect someone to lay
down the rules either we will protest on the language or throw hands
up in the air over tiny language tweaks or figure out a way to stay
true to the word but not the intent of the policy. (think what we did
as teenagers :) SO...we need to learn to fish and not expect a fish to
be given to us. That way next time a situation arises, we know exactly
what to do and what not to do.

BTW, Am really glad we are talking in public about our
folly/foible(s). This is an absolute first step towards making things
better.

thanks,
dims

On 6/9/06, Aaron Mulder <ammulder@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:
> Dims,
>
> Please don't imply that the PMC chair has sent an at-all useful
> message.  (Why is the PMC different today than 4 weeks ago?  I don't
> know -- you have made the first announcement of this just today.
> What's the message?)  You in your e-mail right here have said what you
> though went wrong and how you think it could be corrected in the
> future.  One of my biggest complaints with the board and the PMC chair
> is that they have done neither.  In conversation with the PMC chair I
> practically begged him to tell me I had done something wrong WRT the
> JavaOne meeting and what should be done differently next time.  He
> declined.  I asked him to provide concrete examples of behavior of any
> kind that he thought needed to be changed.  He declined.  I think the
> message you provided below "If I had known about the meeting I would
> have done this...  What Apache projects usually do is this...  All it
> would have taken was this..." was extremely useful.  Please, please
> encourage the PMC chair to take this approach in the future.
>
> Thanks,
>     Aaron
>
> On 6/9/06, Davanum Srinivas <davanum@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Bruce,
> >
> > If you are again asking for my input here it is....It's plain and
> > simple. If there is a forum for discussion, it should be open as much
> > as possible. If it's not possible because of either monetary or space
> > constraints, then at least there should be some notification whereby
> > one can give their input on topics at hand via email and/or IRC.
> >
> > If i had known about significant discussions, i'd have brought up the
> > topic of how/what my thoughts are on a JAX-WS implementation and the
> > lack of a credible JAXB2 implementation. So the "Notes from JavaOne"
> > [1] would have brought out the problems we will be facing implementing
> > both JAX-WS and JAX-RPC (and using a single SAAJ impl) which could
> > have been discussed at this forum. I really have to thank David who
> > followed up by initiating discussion on axis-dev [2] after JavaOne.
> >
> > Clearly there was a private list of people who were invited and an
> > agenda was drawn up which was not shared with the whole dev team
> > either privately or publicly. Typically in all Apache projects, we
> > call it a F2F, pre announce it, discuss via email/wiki some of the
> > items before hand and thrash out the rest in person.
> >
> > All it would have taken is *ONE* lousy email asking for input on items
> > to be discussed either publicly or privately to all committers. Hiding
> > behind facade's like "oh, it was a vendor meeting" or "meeting
> > friends" or "We just left out just one person" or "Oh, There was a
> > BOF" or a thousand other excuses don't count. All you need to think
> > about is whether you are being fair to everyone who is engaged in the
> > project or not. By "bring the community together", hope you don't mean
> > that we just go back to our merry ways and not learn a lesson or two
> > from the strong actions by the pmc chair.
> >
> > Guys, there is something wrong we are doing. Let's fix it!!!!!!!!
> >
> > [1] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=geronimo-dev&m=114807250831613&w=2
> > [2] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=114840811100003&r=1&w=2
> >
> > thanks,
> > dims
> >
> > On 6/9/06, Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 6/9/06, Davanum Srinivas <davanum@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Sigh! :( Looks like all efforts are down the drain.
> > > >
> > > > On 6/9/06, Aaron Mulder <ammulder@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:
> > > > > I don't see what's wrong with a group of folks interested in Gernoimo
> > > > > getting together to talk about Geronimo.  So long as it's positioned
> > > > > as discussion not decision-making, of course -- which, as I recall, it
> > > > > was.
> > >
> > > Dims, statements like that don't work to bring the community together,
> > > they only cause more animosity. Let's try to move beyond the jabs and
> > > let the people with unresolved issues air their concerns so that they
> > > can work together.
> > >
> > > Yet again I'm now thoroughly confused on this whole topic. Does this
> > > mean that nobody can even talk about Geronimo unless it's on-list in
> > > some way? Does this mean if someone at a client site or a local JUG or
> > > anywhere asks me questions about Geronimo that I must either tell them
> > > to ask on the list because I'm not allowed to talk about it or post my
> > > conversation to the list after the fact?
> > >
> > > I really am seriously confused because of so many mixed messages from
> > > so many people about this topic. Please help me understand.
> > >
> > > Bruce
> > > --
> > > perl -e 'print unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*"
> > > );'
> > >
> > > Apache Geronimo - http://geronimo.apache.org/
> > > Apache ActiveMQ - http://incubator.apache.org/activemq/
> > > Apache ServiceMix - http://incubator.apache.org/servicemix/
> > > Castor - http://castor.org/
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
> >
>


-- 
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/