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From Jason Dillon <>
Subject Re: [RTC] Clarification please from the PMC
Date Fri, 30 Jun 2006 00:04:40 GMT
Its a sad time when members of the community are scared to state  
their minds in fear of reprisal.

  * * *

I was never very good at math... that is what calculators are for. :-P


On Jun 29, 2006, at 2:17 PM, Aaron Mulder wrote:

> I'd like to +1 this, but I'm too scared to due to the political  
> ramifications.
> Yesterday, a PMC member told me that the only thing he could compare
> Gernimo to was Avalon, where certain personalities were so destructive
> that someone was kicked out of Apache altogether.
> You do the math.
> Thanks,
>     Aaron
> On 6/29/06, Jason Dillon <> wrote:
>> NOTE: My comments below are not directed towards anyone in
>> particular... mostly this just expresses my frustration with some of
>> the more harmful politics that Apache Geronimo has picked up over the
>> past few months...
>> > Although RTC has slowed down development a bit (or even more), it
>> > will pay off very
>> > soon.
>> I think "slowed down development a bit (or even more)" is an
>> understatement.  I believe that RTC has the development team running
>> through molasses.  And in some cases has caused some patches and
>> issues to get stuck in the tar.  Not really the types of things you
>> want from a vibrant, active and positive community.
>> > We need to be very patient until more committers become PMC
>> > members and their votes are binding.
>> This will not remedy the fact that RTC rules dictate that patches
>> must be applied and tested before a +1 can be given, which normally
>> would have happened once when the *trusted* developer has applied the
>> patch.  But now we need a gang of people to apply the patch, which
>> usually means dropping any other work they were doing to get a clean
>> tree and then apply the patch, pray that the build succeeds in a
>> reasonable amount of time, running through a test case or two and
>> then blowing it all away to get back to the work that they were
>> actually doing before.
>> I fail to see how this will increase anything but frustration of
>> developers to have to jump through those hoops to get changes
>> made.... maybe it will increase communication about how frustrating
>> RTC is though ;-)
>> > Painful, but in the end it might boost development significantly.
>> How will this boost anything?
>> > AFAIUI, the whole point of RTC is to ensure communication through
>> > dev/user mailing lists rather than in closed circles.
>> I don't understand how, dropping what I am working on, applying
>> patches, running tests and then coaxing the few PMC members with
>> votes will ensure more communication.  In may respects I think it
>> actually hinders communication, as people will just shy away from
>> applying changes or from proposing to make new changes.  RTC, IMO is
>> the road to complacency.
>> >> It would seem to me that the process for RTC would be to send an
>> >> RTC about the Maven 1 -> 2
>> >> conversion with some preliminary ideas.
>> I'm confused now... how can one send a RTC w/o having a patch or
>> patches for others to review?
>>   * * *
>> RTC is crippling Apache Geronimo's ability to become a vibrant player
>> in the app-server space.  RTC has made us a Red Tape Community, where
>> it takes weeks to get trivial changes implemented.
>> The problem is made worse by the fact that most of the PMC members
>> who we are supposed to coax into following RTC and voting in the
>> changes are simply not available.  Not all of them mind you, but out
>> of 10 PMC members I can only think of a few who have had time or
>> desire to participate in the RTC and actually give their binding
>> votes.  IMO the only way that RTC could possibly with is if the PMC
>> members drop anything else they are working on and devote their time
>> to applying patches, building and testing... BUT, I don't see that
>> happening.  The people who are actually doing the work are for the
>> most part not PMC members.  The people who are actually applying
>> these patches are not PMC members.  Lucky enough though, I think that
>> there are at least 3 PMC members who are being active, so there is a
>> shot for us to get work done... its just going to be really slow
>> moving.  At this rate, maybe we will have EJB3 support out by the
>> time that EJB4 is dominant... or get out build working on m2 by the
>> time m3 is out...
>> :-\
>> --jason

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