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From Jason Dillon <>
Subject Re: [RTC] Clarification please from the PMC
Date Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:04:01 GMT
NOTE: My comments below are not directed towards anyone in  
particular... mostly this just expresses my frustration with some of  
the more harmful politics that Apache Geronimo has picked up over the  
past few months...

> Although RTC has slowed down development a bit (or even more), it  
> will pay off very
> soon.

I think "slowed down development a bit (or even more)" is an  
understatement.  I believe that RTC has the development team running  
through molasses.  And in some cases has caused some patches and  
issues to get stuck in the tar.  Not really the types of things you  
want from a vibrant, active and positive community.

> We need to be very patient until more committers become PMC
> members and their votes are binding.

This will not remedy the fact that RTC rules dictate that patches  
must be applied and tested before a +1 can be given, which normally  
would have happened once when the *trusted* developer has applied the  
patch.  But now we need a gang of people to apply the patch, which  
usually means dropping any other work they were doing to get a clean  
tree and then apply the patch, pray that the build succeeds in a  
reasonable amount of time, running through a test case or two and  
then blowing it all away to get back to the work that they were  
actually doing before.

I fail to see how this will increase anything but frustration of  
developers to have to jump through those hoops to get changes  
made.... maybe it will increase communication about how frustrating  
RTC is though ;-)

> Painful, but in the end it might boost development significantly.

How will this boost anything?

> AFAIUI, the whole point of RTC is to ensure communication through
> dev/user mailing lists rather than in closed circles.

I don't understand how, dropping what I am working on, applying  
patches, running tests and then coaxing the few PMC members with  
votes will ensure more communication.  In may respects I think it  
actually hinders communication, as people will just shy away from  
applying changes or from proposing to make new changes.  RTC, IMO is  
the road to complacency.

>> It would seem to me that the process for RTC would be to send an  
>> RTC about the Maven 1 -> 2
>> conversion with some preliminary ideas.

I'm confused now... how can one send a RTC w/o having a patch or  
patches for others to review?

  * * *

RTC is crippling Apache Geronimo's ability to become a vibrant player  
in the app-server space.  RTC has made us a Red Tape Community, where  
it takes weeks to get trivial changes implemented.

The problem is made worse by the fact that most of the PMC members  
who we are supposed to coax into following RTC and voting in the  
changes are simply not available.  Not all of them mind you, but out  
of 10 PMC members I can only think of a few who have had time or  
desire to participate in the RTC and actually give their binding  
votes.  IMO the only way that RTC could possibly with is if the PMC  
members drop anything else they are working on and devote their time  
to applying patches, building and testing... BUT, I don't see that  
happening.  The people who are actually doing the work are for the  
most part not PMC members.  The people who are actually applying  
these patches are not PMC members.  Lucky enough though, I think that  
there are at least 3 PMC members who are being active, so there is a  
shot for us to get work done... its just going to be really slow  
moving.  At this rate, maybe we will have EJB3 support out by the  
time that EJB4 is dominant... or get out build working on m2 by the  
time m3 is out...



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