Mailing-List: contact dev-help@geronimo.apache.org; run by ezmlm
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: dev@geronimo.apache.org
Received-SPF: neutral (asf.osuosl.org: local policy)
Message-ID: <43991B28.8040408@hogstrom.org>
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:50:32 -0800
From: Matt Hogstrom <matt@hogstrom.org>
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Macintosh/20050923)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: dev@geronimo.apache.org
Subject: Re: Does there need to be a default web container?
References: <4398C232.9020702@apache.org>
 <4398C430.7010303@gmail.com>	 <74e15baa0512081554saa24be3g499dc05e685a2914@mail.gmail.com>
	 <4398D1FD.4040607@earthlink.net>
 <4398D4B7.5050105@apache.org>	 <4398DE43.4060207@alumni.princeton.edu>
 <4398E770.20603

03@apache.org> <74e15baa0512081848m3541744br5786f121ba4a383f@mail.gmail.com> <4398F949.2050305@apache.org>
In-Reply-To: <4398F949.2050305@apache.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-MMS-Smtp-Program: Macallan-Mail-Solution; Version 4.6.0.1
X-MMS-Smtp-Auth: Authenticated As matt@hogstrom.org
X-MMS-Smtp-Mailer-Program: Macallan-Mail-Solution; Version 4.6.0.1

I think the magic G-ball should be embedded in the installer and let it make a 
random choice for the user :)

The answer is "It is decidedly so."

Matt

Jeff Genender wrote:
> Then lets agree to disagree.  We should probably take this offline if it 
> needs to be discussed further.  This is kind of off-topic.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> Aaron Mulder wrote:
> 
>> Sorry Jeff, I have to disagree.  If you asked me whether you should
>> use Tomcat or Jetty, I really couldn't give you an informed answer. 
>> About the best I could say is "they both work fine in Geronimo, they
>> do a couple things like virtual hosting slightly differently, and the
>> Jetty team is actively involved in Geronimo whereas we pretty much
>> built the Tomcat integration on our own."  Still, that doesn't give
>> you much guidance (the last bit there is the only reason I personally
>> would have any preference at all).  And I feel like I'm in the *most*
>> informed 1% of all possible Geronimo users.
>>
>> I don't think it's sensible to argue over what "average" people know
>> or don't know, it's just my feeling that if I can't make a clear
>> decision for obvious reasons, then I can't ask every user who ever
>> installs the product to make that same decision.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>     Aaron
>>
>> On 12/8/05, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Erin Mulder wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jeff Genender wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So you think your average Geronimo user will have no idea what a web
>>>>> container is?
>>>>
>>>> It's possible.
>>>
>>> I asked "average" user...not whether its possible.  The average user
>>> will probably be a developer...who has done some degree of background on
>>> the technologies.  I would hazard to guess there are few people who use
>>> BEA or Websphere and have absolutely no idea what a web container is.
>>>
>>> The developer will likely know what it is.  I have a hard time with
>>> equating someone's clickety-click Mom with our average user...its
>>> ridicules, which was really what my previous response was directed 
>>> towards.
>>>
>>>> There are a lot of experienced J2EE developers out there who have only
>>>> ever used full commercial stacks.  Asking them to choose between two 
>>>> web
>>>> containers is like asking them to choose EJB, MQ and Web Service
>>>> implementations.  They may pick Tomcat because they vaguely recognize
>>>> the name, but having to make that choice will add anxiety to their
>>>> install experience.
>>>
>>> I am sorry but I cannot agree here.  I cannot believe there are many
>>> "experienced" *J2EE* developers who have no idea what a web container
>>> is.  That is preposterous.  Are there some?  Sure - but I would say very
>>> few.  However, in servlet 101...of which many of these un-knowledgable
>>> users would go, surely a mention of a web container, what it is, and
>>> what they can use (including books, articles, internet), they should
>>> have a minimal understanding of web containers.
>>>
>>>> Geronimo is also likely to become popular in academic settings (both
>>>> classroom and self-study) where people will need to install the server
>>>> before they get around to learning what a web container is.
>>>
>>> The academic component is such a small microcosm in the grand scheme of
>>> users, this not even a reason to think its has a major effect of the
>>> overall user-base.  We should push the direction of Geronimo towards
>>> what the community wants.  If the community wants Jetty, give it to
>>> them. If they want Tomcat, then let them have this.  Let the community
>>> decide.
>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Erin
> 
> 
> 
>