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From "Geir Magnusson Jr." <>
Subject Re: Does there need to be a default web container?
Date Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:33:16 GMT

On Dec 9, 2005, at 11:40 AM, Rajith Attapattu wrote:

> I feel this debate is like do you like Coke or Pepsi?
> People will be more biased about the web container they use most of  
> the
> time (forget about merits/demerits of each app)
> I think it's kind of useless to be arguing about this since both  
> tomcat
> and jetty is available. So ppl will always choose to modify the config
> to have the container they like most.
> (This would have been an important debate, if we were going to include
> only one (either tomcat or jetty), but since both are included it
> doesn't really matter)
> Instead we should use the time to put more documentation on how you  
> can
> change the web container. I think a lot of people will appreciate  
> that.
> Just my 2 cents
> Rajith.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Genender []
> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 12:54 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Does there need to be a default web container?
> Thats a great idea...
> Kinda like Google's "I'm feeling lucky" ;-)
> Matt Hogstrom wrote:
> <>
> <>
>> In-Reply-To: <>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>> X-MMS-Smtp-Program: Macallan-Mail-Solution; Version
>> X-MMS-Smtp-Auth: Authenticated As
>> X-MMS-Smtp-Mailer-Program: Macallan-Mail-Solution; Version
>> I think the magic G-ball should be embedded in the installer and let
> it make a
>> random choice for the user :)
>> The answer is "It is decidedly so."
>> Matt
>> Jeff Genender wrote:
>>> Then lets agree to disagree.  We should probably take this  
>>> offline if
> it
>>> needs to be discussed further.  This is kind of off-topic.
>>> Jeff
>>> Aaron Mulder wrote:
>>>> Sorry Jeff, I have to disagree.  If you asked me whether you should
>>>> use Tomcat or Jetty, I really couldn't give you an informed answer.
>>>> About the best I could say is "they both work fine in Geronimo,  
>>>> they
>>>> do a couple things like virtual hosting slightly differently, and
> the
>>>> Jetty team is actively involved in Geronimo whereas we pretty much
>>>> built the Tomcat integration on our own."  Still, that doesn't give
>>>> you much guidance (the last bit there is the only reason I
> personally
>>>> would have any preference at all).  And I feel like I'm in the
> *most*
>>>> informed 1% of all possible Geronimo users.
>>>> I don't think it's sensible to argue over what "average" people  
>>>> know
>>>> or don't know, it's just my feeling that if I can't make a clear
>>>> decision for obvious reasons, then I can't ask every user who ever
>>>> installs the product to make that same decision.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>     Aaron
>>>> On 12/8/05, Jeff Genender <> wrote:
>>>>> Erin Mulder wrote:
>>>>>> Jeff Genender wrote:
>>>>>>> So you think your average Geronimo user will have no idea what
> web
>>>>>>> container is?
>>>>>> It's possible.
>>>>> I asked "average" user...not whether its possible.  The average
> user
>>>>> will probably be a developer...who has done some degree of
> background on
>>>>> the technologies.  I would hazard to guess there are few people  
>>>>> who
> use
>>>>> BEA or Websphere and have absolutely no idea what a web container
> is.
>>>>> The developer will likely know what it is.  I have a hard time  
>>>>> with
>>>>> equating someone's clickety-click Mom with our average user...its
>>>>> ridicules, which was really what my previous response was directed
>>>>> towards.
>>>>>> There are a lot of experienced J2EE developers out there who have
> only
>>>>>> ever used full commercial stacks.  Asking them to choose between
> two
>>>>>> web
>>>>>> containers is like asking them to choose EJB, MQ and Web Service
>>>>>> implementations.  They may pick Tomcat because they vaguely
> recognize
>>>>>> the name, but having to make that choice will add anxiety to  
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> install experience.
>>>>> I am sorry but I cannot agree here.  I cannot believe there are
> many
>>>>> "experienced" *J2EE* developers who have no idea what a web
> container
>>>>> is.  That is preposterous.  Are there some?  Sure - but I would  
>>>>> say
> very
>>>>> few.  However, in servlet 101...of which many of these
> un-knowledgable
>>>>> users would go, surely a mention of a web container, what it is,
> and
>>>>> what they can use (including books, articles, internet), they
> should
>>>>> have a minimal understanding of web containers.
>>>>>> Geronimo is also likely to become popular in academic settings
> (both
>>>>>> classroom and self-study) where people will need to install the
> server
>>>>>> before they get around to learning what a web container is.
>>>>> The academic component is such a small microcosm in the grand
> scheme of
>>>>> users, this not even a reason to think its has a major effect of
> the
>>>>> overall user-base.  We should push the direction of Geronimo
> towards
>>>>> what the community wants.  If the community wants Jetty, give  
>>>>> it to
>>>>> them. If they want Tomcat, then let them have this.  Let the
> community
>>>>> decide.
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Erin

Geir Magnusson Jr                                  +1-203-665-6437

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