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From Jeff Genender <>
Subject Re: Does there need to be a default web container?
Date Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:24:49 GMT
IMHO, its over and set in stone.  I would have liked that we examined 
what the community wanted and tallied the vote based on our user base, 
but unfortunately this is not my decision.

Vote count:

                          Jetty             Tomcat
                         -------           --------
Geronimo Committers       12                 4
Users                      6                11
                         -------           --------
                           18                15

I may choose to disagree at the level of activity of Tomcat vs Jetty in 
Geronimo over the last year, and could very well be proven wrong by 
empirical evidence...but yes my nose has been knee deep in Tomcat, so 
its likely my views may be jaded.

There is no doubt that someone's feelings are going to get hurt, whether 
it's Greg's or mine, as we both stepped up and delivered our products 
and got them certified.  But at the end of the day...what counts is we 
offer both and that is most important.


Matt Hogstrom wrote:
> My Magic G-Ball comment aside I'll throw my 2c into the debate.  First, 
> the decision we make today is not binding for all time.  Also, I 
> appreciate Joe's comment about simplicity but the reality is J2EE has a 
> steep learning curve and as much as I would like to see Joe's mom 
> download the server and get cracking I doubt she has much use for a J2EE 
> server to post recipes or pictures of her grandchildren on the web.  PHP 
> or Ruby would be easier I think :)
> I appreciate that Tomcat is an Apache Foundation project and we want to 
> taker that into consideration.  Since my involvement in the project 
> though I think the Jetty team has been more actively involved in 
> Geronimo in terms of responding to questions and making changes.  Jeff 
> has been doing a great job at making sure Tomcat is a first class 
> citizen as well.  I may be wrong but the Jetty community seems to be 
> more active in G.
> That said, I suggest we put some text in the installer that gives some 
> context to why a customer would want to choose one over the other.  
> Indicate that Geronimo works equally well with either WebContainer and 
> that what we are providing is a choice for them to meet their specific 
> needs.  I would prefer to have a default checked and lean toward Jetty.
> Regardless of which one is chosen I think the Installer should have some 
> text to guide the user to making a decision and we should be clear about 
> the Openness of Geronimo in allowing choice, providing information to 
> make a decision and provide a default so Joe's mom can get cracking.
> Matt
> Panagiotis Astithas wrote:
>> Jeff Genender wrote:
>>> Joe Bohn wrote:
>>>> I agree with Aaron with regard to usability.   Users don't want to 
>>>> have to make any decisions on the first install (especially when 
>>>> they first pick it up for evaluation).  My mom doesn't install 
>>>> anything on her computer unless she can click, click, click and get 
>>>> it working.  I know our users are more sophisticated than her  ... 
>>>> but we want to make it as easy as possibly to get something working 
>>>> quickly.  We want to make this easy enough for my mom to install 
>>>> (even though she never will).  :-)
>>> So you think your average Geronimo user will have no idea what a web 
>>> container is?
>> I think this is the root of your miscommunication/disagreement: the 
>> decision to choose a web container has to stem not only from an 
>> understanding of what a web container is, but also from an evaluation 
>> of the relative merits of both. That is, Joe User may know from 
>> Servlets 101 what a web container provides, but he may not be aware of 
>> what this choice entails. Of course such worries could be mitigated by 
>> a blurb in this particular installer page that mentions that both are 
>> OK, etc.
>> In the end, I think that not having a default choice (whatever that 
>> may be) is a rather loud acknowledgment of a fear to have the debate 
>> and make a choice :-)
>> Cheers,
>> Panagiotis

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