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From Jeff Genender <jgenen...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Does there need to be a default web container?
Date Fri, 09 Dec 2005 05:53:38 GMT
Thats a great idea...

Kinda like Google's "I'm feeling lucky" ;-)

Matt Hogstrom wrote:
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> I think the magic G-ball should be embedded in the installer and let it make a 
> random choice for the user :)
> 
> The answer is "It is decidedly so."
> 
> Matt
> 
> Jeff Genender wrote:
>> Then lets agree to disagree.  We should probably take this offline if it 
>> needs to be discussed further.  This is kind of off-topic.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> Aaron Mulder wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry Jeff, I have to disagree.  If you asked me whether you should
>>> use Tomcat or Jetty, I really couldn't give you an informed answer. 
>>> About the best I could say is "they both work fine in Geronimo, they
>>> do a couple things like virtual hosting slightly differently, and the
>>> Jetty team is actively involved in Geronimo whereas we pretty much
>>> built the Tomcat integration on our own."  Still, that doesn't give
>>> you much guidance (the last bit there is the only reason I personally
>>> would have any preference at all).  And I feel like I'm in the *most*
>>> informed 1% of all possible Geronimo users.
>>>
>>> I don't think it's sensible to argue over what "average" people know
>>> or don't know, it's just my feeling that if I can't make a clear
>>> decision for obvious reasons, then I can't ask every user who ever
>>> installs the product to make that same decision.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>     Aaron
>>>
>>> On 12/8/05, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Erin Mulder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jeff Genender wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> So you think your average Geronimo user will have no idea what a
web
>>>>>> container is?
>>>>> It's possible.
>>>> I asked "average" user...not whether its possible.  The average user
>>>> will probably be a developer...who has done some degree of background on
>>>> the technologies.  I would hazard to guess there are few people who use
>>>> BEA or Websphere and have absolutely no idea what a web container is.
>>>>
>>>> The developer will likely know what it is.  I have a hard time with
>>>> equating someone's clickety-click Mom with our average user...its
>>>> ridicules, which was really what my previous response was directed 
>>>> towards.
>>>>
>>>>> There are a lot of experienced J2EE developers out there who have only
>>>>> ever used full commercial stacks.  Asking them to choose between two

>>>>> web
>>>>> containers is like asking them to choose EJB, MQ and Web Service
>>>>> implementations.  They may pick Tomcat because they vaguely recognize
>>>>> the name, but having to make that choice will add anxiety to their
>>>>> install experience.
>>>> I am sorry but I cannot agree here.  I cannot believe there are many
>>>> "experienced" *J2EE* developers who have no idea what a web container
>>>> is.  That is preposterous.  Are there some?  Sure - but I would say very
>>>> few.  However, in servlet 101...of which many of these un-knowledgable
>>>> users would go, surely a mention of a web container, what it is, and
>>>> what they can use (including books, articles, internet), they should
>>>> have a minimal understanding of web containers.
>>>>
>>>>> Geronimo is also likely to become popular in academic settings (both
>>>>> classroom and self-study) where people will need to install the server
>>>>> before they get around to learning what a web container is.
>>>> The academic component is such a small microcosm in the grand scheme of
>>>> users, this not even a reason to think its has a major effect of the
>>>> overall user-base.  We should push the direction of Geronimo towards
>>>> what the community wants.  If the community wants Jetty, give it to
>>>> them. If they want Tomcat, then let them have this.  Let the community
>>>> decide.
>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Erin
>>
>>
>>

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