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From Jeff Genender <jgenen...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Does there need to be a default web container?
Date Fri, 09 Dec 2005 03:26:01 GMT
Then lets agree to disagree.  We should probably take this offline if it 
needs to be discussed further.  This is kind of off-topic.

Jeff

Aaron Mulder wrote:
> Sorry Jeff, I have to disagree.  If you asked me whether you should
> use Tomcat or Jetty, I really couldn't give you an informed answer. 
> About the best I could say is "they both work fine in Geronimo, they
> do a couple things like virtual hosting slightly differently, and the
> Jetty team is actively involved in Geronimo whereas we pretty much
> built the Tomcat integration on our own."  Still, that doesn't give
> you much guidance (the last bit there is the only reason I personally
> would have any preference at all).  And I feel like I'm in the *most*
> informed 1% of all possible Geronimo users.
> 
> I don't think it's sensible to argue over what "average" people know
> or don't know, it's just my feeling that if I can't make a clear
> decision for obvious reasons, then I can't ask every user who ever
> installs the product to make that same decision.
> 
> Thanks,
>     Aaron
> 
> On 12/8/05, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Erin Mulder wrote:
>>> Jeff Genender wrote:
>>>> So you think your average Geronimo user will have no idea what a web
>>>> container is?
>>> It's possible.
>> I asked "average" user...not whether its possible.  The average user
>> will probably be a developer...who has done some degree of background on
>> the technologies.  I would hazard to guess there are few people who use
>> BEA or Websphere and have absolutely no idea what a web container is.
>>
>> The developer will likely know what it is.  I have a hard time with
>> equating someone's clickety-click Mom with our average user...its
>> ridicules, which was really what my previous response was directed towards.
>>
>>> There are a lot of experienced J2EE developers out there who have only
>>> ever used full commercial stacks.  Asking them to choose between two web
>>> containers is like asking them to choose EJB, MQ and Web Service
>>> implementations.  They may pick Tomcat because they vaguely recognize
>>> the name, but having to make that choice will add anxiety to their
>>> install experience.
>> I am sorry but I cannot agree here.  I cannot believe there are many
>> "experienced" *J2EE* developers who have no idea what a web container
>> is.  That is preposterous.  Are there some?  Sure - but I would say very
>> few.  However, in servlet 101...of which many of these un-knowledgable
>> users would go, surely a mention of a web container, what it is, and
>> what they can use (including books, articles, internet), they should
>> have a minimal understanding of web containers.
>>
>>> Geronimo is also likely to become popular in academic settings (both
>>> classroom and self-study) where people will need to install the server
>>> before they get around to learning what a web container is.
>> The academic component is such a small microcosm in the grand scheme of
>> users, this not even a reason to think its has a major effect of the
>> overall user-base.  We should push the direction of Geronimo towards
>> what the community wants.  If the community wants Jetty, give it to
>> them. If they want Tomcat, then let them have this.  Let the community
>> decide.
>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Erin

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