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From Dain Sundstrom <>
Subject Re: Generic Logo Contest Guidelines
Date Sun, 09 Oct 2005 15:55:52 GMT
On Oct 9, 2005, at 7:11 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

> On Oct 8, 2005, at 1:59 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
>> On Oct 8, 2005, at 8:47 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>> Lets cut to the root of it - Is your problem with having to work  
>>> within the guidelines from the PRC, or is there some particular  
>>> problem with the guidelines themselves?  I'm sure that if it's  
>>> the latter, any reasonable suggestion, change or addition will be  
>>> welcomed.
>> Well cutting to the chase, I do have a problem with the  
>> guidelines.  Everyone has an opinion on the logo, but the opinion  
>> of the folks involved in the PRC seem to cary veto power.  It is  
>> clear that the PRC is simply trying to avoid potential future  
>> problems, and I believe that it is important for the members of  
>> the Geronimo community to hear the concerns of the PRC.  I expect  
>> the Geronimo community should take this into account when  
>> selecting a logo, but I don't think that anyone other then the  
>> Geronimo community should be choosing the logo.
>> The big problem here is the most popular logo is #11, and there  
>> are a few outsiders that don't like this.  Instead of them coming  
>> to the community and trying to convince the community that this is  
>> a bad choice, the PRC simply issues a mandate, and that grates on  
>> me.  I say, if you want to be involved in the Geronimo logo  
>> process come here and discuss it, otherwise keep your opinions to  
>> your self.
> First, don't forget that this is an Apache project, and therefore  
> we have to abide by Apache Foundation guidelines for things.

In every email I have sent I have made this point.  If this is an  
official "Apache Foundation guideline" then we must follow it, or  
appeal it to the board.  I am questioning if this is an official  
"Apache Foundation guideline".

> Second, I think you are leaping to conclusions.  If there is a logo  
> that we feel may not satisfy the guidelines but feel is ok, we  
> should probably just ask the PRC.

That statement implies that the PRC has jurisdiction over logo  
selection, and I am questioning that.

>> If this is an official mandate of the board then we must accept  
>> it, but I'm not happy about it, which is why I feel it is critical  
>> to determine if this is a mandate of the board.  Did the board  
>> give the PRC rule making authority over all imagery at Apache?
> Yes.

Cool.  That was all I was asking.  Now for a bit of Regan "trust but  
verify".  Where can I find the Board resolution stating this?

>>   Did the board specifically direct the PRC to create logo  
>> guidelines?
> No, but that's utterly irrelevant.  I asked the PRC to create  
> guidelines, because our name selection was and is controversial,  
> and there's absolutely no reason to further antagonize members of  
> the Apache community with a logo decision along the same lines.   
> Further, our name and imagery will be used far and wide in the  
> industry, and very prominently, and I thought that was another  
> excellent reason.

Assuming the above is true, I agree the question was irrelevant.  If  
you did have concerns, why didn't you come to the community first?

>> Has the Board officially accepted these guidelines or is this  
>> still a rough draft?
> Again, utterly irrelevant, as the board has officially delegated  
> responsibility for branding and imaging to the PRC, and doesn't  
> need to review every decision.   If there are issues with the  
> guidelines, the PRC will welcome our feedback.  If we're not  
> satisfied, we can appeal to the board, but I'm not sure what we'd  
> be trying to achieve at that point.

I think it is completely relevant.  Given that this policy effects  
the entire ASF and changes the way logos has been done up to this  
point, if this is just a draft, I would propose that we wait for the  
final form, because my guess is it will tick off some powerful Apache  
members, and be changed.

>>   I personally will be more comfortable if we knew exactly where  
>> these guidelines stand within Apache.
> I hope it's clear now.

It is now.  I was my understanding that Apache tended favor putting  
decisions into "Project Rights" and not "Foundation Rights", but I  
guess as any organization ages there is a tendency to centralize more  
and more.

>> BTW, I personally think #11 is tacky, but not offensive, and am  
>> fine to have it in the contest, but personally #9 to win.
> If we think that we should go to the PRC about #11 and ask, lets do  
> that.  Otherwise, lets move on.

Good idea.  Why don't we have the logo contest will all logos?  I  
think everyone in the community gets the seriousness of this issue,  
and will take it into account when voting.  If the winner is not  
approved by the PRC, then we can take it to the board.


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