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From David Blevins <david.blev...@visi.com>
Subject Re: [HUMOR] Re: [POLL] API and Implementation serialization compatibility and upgrading
Date Mon, 16 May 2005 15:44:50 GMT
Nice spin.  Though you're joking around, I'll answer seriously.

PROJECTS:
Again we are talking about changed class files, which can result from a patch or upgrade.
 When people make things serializable, they are only guaranteeing that data serialized from
that class and be deserialized back into that exact class.  They are not making claims of
past or future versions of that class.

USERS:
Users do care about incompatibilities between minor dot and patch releases.  But users do
not care about compatibility of private class files between minor dot and patch releases.
 But as the storage format for configuration data is public and private class files, we have
made this their problem at upgrade/patch time.

-David

On Sat, May 14, 2005 at 08:14:49PM -0700, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
> <humor>
> Oh, for Pete's sake, this poll is about as Fair and Balanced as Fox News.
> 
> How about:
> 
> PROJECT POLL:
>   [ ] We, ${projectName}, didn't really mean it when we said something
>       was Serializable and feel free to change our APIs and
>       implementation at any time without telling you.
> 
>   [ ] We do our best to ensure our public APIs, but use of them is not
>       supported by us. Good luck guys.
> 
> USER POLL:
>   [ ] I am a ${otherProject} user and quite like the incompatibilities
>       between even minor dot releases - it gives my admins something to
>       do. Please make sure ${projectName} behaves this way as well
> 
>   [ ] I believe the safest way to upgrade something is to wipe out
>       everything that is there and start over every time. That way
>       I don't get cooties from old software.
> 
> </humor>
> 
> OK, so it probably isn't that funny but let's at least have a serious 
> discussion about this.
> 
> --
> Jeremy
> 
> David Blevins wrote:
> >I really want to get some feedback from the developers, users, lurkers, 
> >other projects and everyone on this subject.  It shouldn't be a taboo to 
> >talk about or considered a "can of worms" or a "hot button."  It affects 
> >the project at pretty fundamental level, so I think it would be good if we 
> >did our best to get feedback.
> >
> >The problem:
> >
> >  Upgrading apps between versions of Geronimo and it's integrated projects 
> >  is not currently possible without a redeploy.
> >
> >The facts:
> >  - Our deploy system and storage of deployed apps is serialization based.
> >  - At deploy time we build and Jetty web containers, Tomcat web 
> >  containers, ActiveMQ queues/topics, OpenEJB ejb containers, Axis 
> >  webservices, TranQL connectors and more
> >  - We serialize those objects which include not just what they consider 
> >  to be their public APIs but also the private implementations of those 
> >  APIs.
> >
> >The tricky part:
> >  - We, qualified in alphabetical order, ActiveMQ, Axis, Geronimo, Jetty, 
> >  OpenEJB, Tomcat, TranQL, et. al. cannot change our public API *or* 
> >  private Implementation of our APIs and still deserialize objects from a 
> >  previous version.
> >  - Unless we (the projecst above) agree not to bug fix, optimize, 
> >  refactor, repackage, or reorganize our code in a way that would break 
> >  deserialization of objects created with a previous versions of our code, 
> >  it will not be possible to upgrade applications leveraging these 
> >  projects without a redeploy.
> >
> >
> >PROJECT POLL:
> >  [ ]  We will do our best to ensure the implementations of our APIs are 
> >  serialization compatible to future versions of our code.
> >  [ ]  We do our best to ensure our public APIs, but use of our 
> >  implementations in such a way is not supported by us.
> >
> >USER POLL:
> >  [ ]  I do not mind redeploying my applications on each upgrade of 
> >  Geronimo et. al.
> >  [ ]  I do not want to start from scratch on each upgrade of Geronimo et. 
> >  al.
> >
> >
> >
> >-David
> >
> >
> 

 LocalWords:  Boynes

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