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From Jeremy Boynes <jboy...@apache.org>
Subject Re: What hidden agenda?
Date Mon, 08 Nov 2004 18:24:28 GMT
Jim Jagielski wrote:
> Within the ASF, the use of the development mailing list is *the* method
> of development discussion. That's the reason for it.
> 
> Wikis are good for "after the fact" documentation.
> 
> IRC is good when a small subset of developers need to
> get together quickly to talk about some aspects of
> development, but it should quickly and completely
> migrate to email after the "pressing" matters have
> been dealt with. Same with thinks like "meetings
> over beer" and stuff like that. The reason, of
> course, should be obvious: it excludes by its very
> nature other developers. And you can't have collaborative
> development when that happens.
> 
> Also, in-the-open development via Email makes it easy
> to prevent such claims as "back door" activity. How can it
> be back door when it's openly discussed in the primary
> development scheme?
> 
> In general, however, such things as "we discussed this
> on IRC and we decided to do this and we'll post a
> summary on Email when we can" is never a good idea,
> and can result in kindly words that "development is always
> done on the mailing list" to fiery words that "people are
> trying to have their cake and eat it too by riding on
> the ASF name without adhering to its standard practices."
> 
> This is an issue that every ASF project has had to deal with
> in one way or another.

I think you are missing the true issue here.

The off-list discussion between Aaron and myself came about because it 
was pretty darn clear that we were not effectively communicating our 
thoughts in email and that the thread was disintegrating into dispute. 
Rather than indulge in a flame fest we took action to help reach 
consensus in the community. The intent and outcome of the off-list 
discussion was a plan on how to get back to a reasonable discussion *on 
the list* - no technical decisions were made.

The bitter and personal attack that came as a response to this achieves 
the exact opposite of what you desire as it encourages people to keep 
quiet about such discussions; for, like it or not, such discussions will 
happen (ApacheCon anyone?).

But it is more than that. Speculative allegations seed FUD about the 
project and are, in my opinion, deleterious to the project and 
community. We should not encourage or condone such behaviour.

You had two individuals here trying to resolve a technical difference by 
discussing between themselves how to coherently present the issue to the 
community so all could be involved. This is a good thing.

You had two individuals flame them for doing so with accusations of a 
hidden agenda. This is a bad thing. Talk of cake and coat-tails simply 
promulgates that meme.

--
Jeremy

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