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From "n. alex rupp" <>
Subject Re: new console-swing team
Date Sat, 22 Nov 2003 18:50:49 GMT

Thanks for your concern about this.  I license software under the AFL so I can
avoid legal entanglements relating to collective ownership of my property and
conflicts of control over that property which derive from collective ownership,
and also to grant greater rewards and incentives to future developers and users.
Future versions of the ASL might correct this problem and give me incentive to
relicense and get more involved with the ASF.  If so, that's great.  But it's
only one factor.

I'm also trying to avoid political entanglements which threaten the development
of software and (more importantly) the development of self-motivated, autonomous
individual developers.  What percentage of people get involved in Open Source
because they want to improve their talents, their experience, their knowledge,
so they can provide a better life for themselves and maybe for their families?
Probably most of them.  Possibly all of them.

I think the need to develop a strong community can work to the detriment of
individual development.  There are hundreds of people on this list who are
hungry to contribute and develop their skills through the improvement of the
community but who simply don't have the experience or opportunity to function as
autonomous individuals.  The current structure of the ASF simply does not scale
to meet the demand generated by this project.

So the community has a couple of options, maybe more.  They can either add more
layers of management and tell people exactly what they should do in order to
include more people in development and grow the active community (I wouldn't
advise this), or they can develop some sort of mentoring or sponsoring program
in which candidates are picked out of the list by one of the committers and
sponsored for a period of time in order to train them about the workings of the
technology and the community.  The apprentices who show the most initiative and
mastery over the technology and are socially able to perform as full members of
the community could then graduate to committer status and can choose their own
apprentice (or even two or three apprentices if they think they can handle it).
This master/apprentice system has been used with great success for thousands of
years.  It contributes to the development of a strong community by creating the
social incentives to lift up newcomers and to recognize talent before it gets
frustrated and leaves.

I don't know, Noel.  I have a strong sense that what I'm doing for this project
is good for the people around here and good for me.  I don't need you guys
breathing down my neck all the time with rules and politics.  I'm here to write
code and have fun, and with comments like those Roy made last night and which
Greg has made from time to time, I don't feel I can do much of either unless I'm
willing to go it alone.  I consider this the failure of the ASF and wish that
its members would do something to detoxify the environment.  Roys reasons might
have been genuine but his conduct was intolerable.

I can't speak for anyone else around here, but I want to produce good software
more than I need the approval of the ASF, and I'm not afraid to go it alone if
it means I can work in peace.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Noel J. Bergman" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 3:45 PM
Subject: RE: new console-swing team

> Matt Kurjanowicz wrote:
> > Ryan Sonnek wrote:
> > > Could this new module be worked upon at the sourceforge project
> > > (service-cache) alongside the console-web?  This would allow non-ASF
> > > commiters to progress on it, and submit patches and updates to the
> > > geronimo project.
> > I'm already a developer at service-cache, so we can host it there.  The
> only
> > caveat is that there everything is licensed as the Academic Free License
> (v.
> > 2.0).  I'd rather stick with that then use the ASL v.1.1.
> Is there a reason why is not
> hosted here?  If there is a need to bring in new component projects and new
> committers, that should be addressed.  You want to grow a larger and more
> diverse active Geronimo committer community.
> --- Noel

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