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From "Ryan Ackley" <>
Subject Re: committer process
Date Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:22:46 GMT

Not sure if you were following the recent discussions. I posted a couple
links to the Apache process on new committers
( Any committer can
nominate anyone else as a committer at any time. Then there is a vote of
committers on the dev list. This is the standard Apache way of doing it and
it has worked on a wide range of projects.

I don't even know if the Apache Board of Directors would allow you to make
committer votes "secret". Have you approached anyone on the board about this


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Aaron Bannert" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: committer process

> On Thursday, September 11, 2003, at 11:33  PM, n. alex rupp wrote:
> [...]
> >> By moving the vote explicitly onto the PMC's private
> >> mailing list, you are putting the vote in front of the
> >> people who are ultimately responsible.
> >
> > No we're not.  We're only hiding it from the eyes of the community.
> > That's
> > pretty ironic coming from someone who has recently brought up our
> > alleged
> > "cathedral" tendencies.
> >
> > I'm curious how the members of the PMC can be more "responsible" than
> > the
> > people who *also* invest their free time each day to write the
> > software,
> > foster the community and contribute to the list, the wiki and incoming
> > members?  If they were "more responsible" than us, everything on this
> > list
> > would be in front of them every day anyway, so there'd be no reason to
> > "put
> > the vote in front" of them.  Perhaps the PMC isn't more "responsible"
> > so
> > much as more "accountable", which begs the question "to whom?"
> I think this is a common misunderstanding of what the ASF means by
> "responsibility". By no means should the PMC detract from the dedication
> or effort put forth by the committers and by the community. The ASF
> would not exist were it not for the efforts of countless code
> contributors,
> bug testers, release managers, etc.
> In an ideal world, all contributers are also committers and are also PMC
> members. As this project and all projects mature, more and more of the
> community will be contained within the body of the PMC. Since this
> project
> is so new, and doesn't even have a PMC of its own yet, the
> "responsibility"
> falls to the incubator. By responsibility, I mean the legal
> responsibility
> of oversight that the ASF (a Non-Profit Corporation) must maintain in
> order
> to justify its legal protections. The ASF is taking upon itself legal
> responsibility for the products it releases, but it can only do that if
> it is in charge of the stuff that gets released.
> By moving the discussion of new committers to the PMC, we aren't trying
> to
> take away the ability of the community to decide who becomes part of
> the community, but we are trying to uphold the legal responsibility of
> the ASF to maintain oversight over its projects.
> We need to start thinking about how we are going to get Geronimo its own
> PMC, but I'm not sure how to do that yet. Maybe we should create another
> mailing list, grandfather in all incubator PMCers, and then start voting
> in new PMC members from the group of Geronimo committers. I personally
> would
> feel obliged to nominate anyone for PMC who has shown a good
> understanding
> of the general guidelines of the ASF, and has shown an interest in
> helping
> manage the project. Once that PMC starts to get critical mass, incubator
> PMCers can volunteer to drop out of the Geronimo PMC.
> > To the board?  To the public? Or to the people on this list who stand
> > to
> > lose or gain the most as its developers and future users?
> >
> > No one can say I'm not grateful for everything the ASF and the
> > incubator PMC
> > members in particular have done on behalf of this project and the
> > community
> > growing up around it.  But the time is fast approaching when they'll
> > need to
> > stop treating its members like outsiders.
> Agreed. Let's start nominating committers. Send nominations to
> -aaron

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