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From Christian Trutz <ch...@smilebase.org>
Subject Re: [VOTE] change Reply-To to go to geronimo-dev
Date Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:29:46 GMT
On Fri, Aug 08, 2003 at 11:21:31AM +0100, Alex Blewitt wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 08, 2003 at 10:18:47AM +0100, Andrew Savory wrote:
> 
> >On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >>Not a committer, but -1 for the following reasons:
> >
> >-1 me too!
> >
> >I am using Mutt, which ahs no problems with mailing lists
> >and i have now the problems which you described below ..
> 
> I think that was two -1's with many +1's in the list ...
> 

ok ok, am love democraty even when myself belongs to the minority :-)

Chris

> >># It violates the principle of minimal munging.
> 
> Sorry, don't know what that is.
> 
> >># It provides no benefit to the user of a reasonable mailer.\
> 
> Talking on a list (by default) is talking to the entire group. The 
> Reply button uses the Reply-To, so the default option is the correct 
> one.
> 
> By contrast, sending a mail to an individual is still very easy; use 
> 'Reply All' (or whatever) and delete the mailing list address.
> 
> >># It limits a subscriber's freedom to choose how he or she will 
> >>direct a
> >>response.
> 
> It's still possible to send it only to the originator, using the 
> technique described above or cut'n'paste for the address. Failing that, 
> typing the address manually is also a possibility, so it doesn't limit 
> freedom. It just changes the default.
> 
> >># It actually reduces functionality for the user of a reasonable 
> >>mailer.
> 
> Reasonable mailers have cut'n'paste and Reply All as described above.
> 
> >># It removes important information, which can make it impossible to 
> >>get
> >>back to the message sender.
> 
> It doesn't remove any information; you can still do Reply All where 
> necessary.
> 
> >># It penalizes the person with a reasonable mailer in order to coddle
> >>those running brain-dead software.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by that. My mailer may not be brain dead, 
> but it certainly works in the way I expect it to.
> 
> >># It violates the principle of least work because complicates the
> >>procedure for replying to messages.
> 
> Replying to a discussion group should go to the list, not the 
> individual person. After all, you're subscribed to the list, aren't you?
> 
> >># It violates the principle of least surprise because it changes the 
> >>way a
> >>mailer works.
> 
> Reply-To is specifically defined for replying to a list. Mailers use 
> it, because that's the way they work. Granted, that when a user hasn't 
> come across it before then they may not be expecting it, but just 
> because it is unexpected doesn't mean that it's changed it :-)
> 
> >># It violates the principle of least damage, and it encourages a 
> >>failure
> >>mode that can be extremely embarrassing -- or worse.
> 
> Surely, only for messages that don't belong on a group discussion 
> anyway?
> 
> >># Your subscribers don't want you to do it. Or, at least the ones who 
> >>have
> >>bothered to read the docs for their mailer don't want you to do it.
> 
> Personally I got the impression that there were more 'yays' than 'nays' 
> in the group. Don't know if that was the case, but I only recalled 
> seeing two individual's -1 votes.
> 
> >>http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
> 
> A good description of some of these disadvantages (largely cut and 
> pasted into the original message).
> 
> I suspect that there are some mailing lists where the preferable mode 
> is to reply to individuals (for example, the *.forsale.* newsgroups 
> spring to mind). But a mailing list which is actually a discussion list 
> should be in the open, and the default behaviour should be to discuss 
> ideas in the open.
> 
> Hopefully, but putting together e-mails and discussing both pros and 
> cons, and letting the others read through them, is the best way to 
> achieve a consensus for a development group. Therefore I concur with 
> the Reply-To feature.
> 
> If you want to bring up any of these issues and discuss them with the 
> group, reply to this message and it will go through. If you want to 
> bring up any issues with me personally, then use the Reply to All/Reply 
> to Group feature and delete the geronimo-dev address.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Alex.

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