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From Ross Gardler <rgard...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [Fwd: [mail@leosimons.com: Re: [RT] Super Simple Site Generation Tool]]
Date Mon, 02 Jan 2006 06:05:39 GMT
David Crossley wrote:
> Ross Gardler wrote:
> 

...

>>Leo Simons wrote:

...

>>>while since it has to check out things such as a servlet engine, a whole
>>>website, lots of skins I don't need, dozens of jars I already have on my
>>>system (in my maven repository).
>>
>>Yes, we should consider moving to Maven, ...
> 
> 
> Waiting until Cocooon move to Maven. Forrest
> probably then doesn't need to, as most of the
> jars that we use are direct from Cocoon.

True, although some plugins provide jars as well. I agree we should be 
waiting for Cocoon to finish the move as 95% of the benefit is in Cocoon 
not the plugins.

>>>Even if it works once I get forrest built
>>>(why do I need to build anything?)
>>
>>You don't have to build anything, just download a binary distribution, 
>>this is more misinformation.
> 
> 
> Actually, sorry to say Ross, this time you are
> spreading the mis-information. The Incubator docs
> are very clear about using the current forrest_07_branch.
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/website.html

OK, sorry, I didn't realise there were bug fixes in the branch. If they 
are critical we should consider a 0.7.1 release. If they are only for 
Incubator (and they stay with Forrest) we should consider providing 
"stable snapshots" (see thread on dev).

>>>I have no idea what the first two columns mean. They don't seem to 
>>
>>correspond
>>
>>>to anything, since the numbers change at random between pages. Ugh.
>>
>>You know I don't know what they mean either. I never bothered to find 
>>out because I never needed to know and I never saw a user question that 
>>involved them.
> 
> 
> They are explicitly explained in the build output
> and there is a nice FAQ about it. I find them
> extremely useful and would like them to remain.

They are explained in the FAQ, but not in the build output:

# Column 2 is the page count - the number of pages processed and the 
number remaining. The latter will change because during processing one 
page, Cocoon will discover more.
# Column 3 is the number of links that were gathered from that page.

(I'm guessing Leo was actually referring to the second two columns since 
he refers to numbers and the first is indeed explained in the build output)

>>> Moreoever, why on earth did
>>>it spend 5 minutes generating files that are now exactly the same as
>>>before?? Abort, abort, abort.

...

>>With respect to the need to generate changed pages,

That should read "to generate *unchanged* pages"

>> this is an often 
>>requested feature. We are a little limited by Cocoon here, but it is 
>>possible to manually edit a config file that will restrict the 
>>generation to a limited number of pages. Problem there is the need to 
>>manually edit the file - too complex.
> 
> 
> This is because Cocoon crawls the site looking for
> links to build. Perhaps the navigation has changed
> to add other menu items to this page. Perhaps the
> skin has changed. So perhaps Cocoon needs to re-build
> every page. I cannot see how or why we would change this.

One has to be very careful about this. If I fix a spelling error in a 
single page of a 500 page site, I really don't want to generate all 500 
pages. It would be good to just generate that single page...

> There are FAQs about generating single pages.
> It is not hard. However this is a dangerous thing
> to do. It would be easy to end up with a site
> that is out-of-sync.

Yes, there are FAQs. But we know people don't read docs, our discussions 
on the Incubator list prove it.

For me, the question is can we make it even simpler than it already is? 
I think we can, see proposal on dev list.

>>>  - heavy HTML using spacer GIFs and complex tables
> 
> 
> Only the old "deprecated" skins use html tables.
> Use the recommended "pelt" skin or wait for the new
> Dispatcher.

Yes, that is correct. The pelt skin is 100% CSS and has been for some 
time. Interestingly that is what the Incubator is using, so I have no 
idea when the last time Leo looked at the generated sources were.

Furthermore, I just created a new skin which is somewhat cleaner in its 
output. It is  intended to be a the equivalent of http://www.apache.org. 
It's not perfect yet, but it is pretty close. See dev list.

The Dispatcher improves things even more (again a dev topic).

Ross

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