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From Tim Williams <william...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: unordered list
Date Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:02:50 GMT
On 6/22/05, Ross Gardler <rgardler@apache.org> wrote:
> Maurice Lanselle wrote:
> > Ross Gardler said the following on 21/06/2005 15:29:
> ...
> 
> >> (note a paragraph is a group of sentences, so list, ordered or
> >> otherwise has no place inside a paragraph)
> >>
> >> Ross
> >>
> > Not everyone would agree that lists (and long quotations) never have
> > their place in paragraphs.  The essence of a paragraph is that it treats
> > or develops a single point. It may be a short phrase, or even just a
> > word in a dialogue, or quite long. Discussion of a list's content may
> > well belong in the same paragraph as its introduction.
> >
> >> "The object of treating each topic in a paragraph is, of course, to
> >> aid the reader. The beginning of each paragraph is a signal to him
> >> that a new step in the development of the subject has been reached."
> >> (Strunk and White,  "The Elements of Style").
> 
> 
> Note the title "Elements of Style", now read on...
> 
> > The work-around of placing the list between two paragraphs may be
> > satisfactory, at least when the list begins or ends the paragraph.
> > However, if the paragraphs are indented, the reader may not easily
> > recognize that the end of the discussion is the continuation of the same
> > point.  As Strunk and White caution,
> >
> >> "But remember, too, that firing off too many paragraphs in quick
> >> succession can be distracting.  Paragraph breaks used only for show
> >> read like the writing of commerce or of display advertising.
> >> Moderation and a sense of order should be the main consideration in
> >> paragraphing."
> 
> That is a statement about the *display* (or style) of the information
> not about the contextual *mark-up* of the information. If you want to
> change the *style* of something being output then you use  class attributes:
> 
> <p class="indent">blah blah</p>
> <ul class="indent">
>    ...
> </ul>
> <p class="indent">...</p>

It seems to me this *is* about the contextual "mark-up" of the
information as opposed to style.  The point is that a list of items
can logically be contained in a paragraph and the current workaround
to close the para and make sibling ULs is in some cases incorrect when
the list does logically belong with the paras topic.  The current way
makes sense probably because folks have traditional
html-style-bulleted-list display on their mind but take away a
bulleted list and the original guy's argument makes more sense to me
at least.  For example, a simple paragraph like:

<p>I have a one-acre vegetable garden this summer.  In my garden I
grow the following: <ul>
   <li>tomatoes</li> 
   <li>corn</li>  
   <li>squash</li>
   <li>cucumbers</li>
</ul>
While the garden is growing well, I could use a bit more rain.</p>

styled to be:

"I have a one-acre vegetable garden this summer.  In my garden I grow
the following: tomatoes, corn, squash, and cucumbers.  While the
garden is growing well, I could use a bit more rain."

There is an unordered list that logically belongs subordinate to the
para element in my mind.  It's only for style reasons that one might
suggest doing the following:

<p>I have a one-acre vegetable garden this summer.  In my garden I
grow the following: </p>
<ul>
  <li>tomatoes</li>
  <li> corn</li>
   <li> squash</li>
   <li> cucumbers</li>
</ul>

<p> While the garden is growing well, I could use a bit more rain.</p>

Either way, docbook could just be used but it seemed to me that there
is more to the list/paragraph relationship than just style.
--tim

(on a side note, the corn isn't doing so well)

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