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From David Crossley <cross...@apache.org>
Subject Forrest for documentation generation (Was: commercial Forrest skins?)
Date Wed, 01 Dec 2004 01:21:30 GMT
Glen Tulukin wrote:
> "David Crossley" wrote in message
> news:41AC1EBC.909@apache.org...
> 
>>Glen Tulukin wrote:
>>
>>>I am not a frequent visitor of this forum and thus I do not know the
> 
> "common
> 
>>>denominator" opinion but I think it's wrong that you restrict Forrest to
> 
> the
> 
>>>purpose of documentation generation only.
>>
>>Where do you get the idea that we restrict Forrest?
>>Is there something in our documentation that we need
>>to change?
> 
> "Apache Forrest is an XML standards-oriented documentation framework based
> upon Apache Cocoon, providing XSLT stylesheets and schemas, images and other
> resources. Forrest uses these to render the source content into a website
> via command-line, robot, or dynamic application. " -- it's on the
> forrest.apache.org. The word "documentation" is restrictive/confusing for a
> new commer. I am lucky to have Vadim Gritsenko in the next cubical (he is
> frequent contributor to Cocoon, if somebody does not know) who can explain
> that "Forrest is Cocoon plus three skins plus ready-to-use sitemap. Do with
> Forrest whatever you would do with Cocoon. People mainly use it for
> documentation and you are the first one I know who uses Forrest for _real_
> website generation."

Please say a kind hello to Vadim from me, then ask
him to get more aquainted with Forrest. It is way
more than that description. There are many people
who use it for real websites. We need to encourage
them to add to our "Examples" page.

>>>I use Forrest for production web site generation -- I do it for my
> 
> client.
> 
>>>Client submits me xml file they edit in the XML Spy with linked
>>>document-v12.dtd and a freelancer/web designer updates css from time to
>>>time. I regenerate site and ftp it to ISP. I know that some other people
> 
> I
> 
>>>met at local XML group do more or less the same.
>>
>>Isn't that still "documentation generation"?
> 
> No, they (my client) connect XMLSpy to the corporate database and generate
> XMLs -- list of products, services, discounts, questions for forms, etc.
> It's a real thing, the  XML documents are not documents per se in that sense
> they are not written by a content provider or tech writer -- they are
> snapshots of the production database. A custom transformer calls ILOG Rule
> Engine that has rules how to combine different components and generate a
> service or product offering. The only xdoc they wrote is "about us" --
> everything else comes from MS SQL Server via rule engine transformer as a
> step in the pipe.

It is all still documentation. However i do see the
point of your complaint, and we will try to adjust
the description.

>>>I had to clean-up Forrest
>>>xslt's to make them more Internet-oriented as opposite to be
>>>documentation-oriented. Namely, use DIV instead of tables, remove
> 
> comments,
> 
>>That indicates to me that you are using one of the old
>>deprecated skins. Please heed the warnings and investigate
>>the "pelt" skin.
> 
> I use whatever in the last official release, "pelt" is not there but I'll
> take a look.
> 
> 
>>>have separate windows title and document title, introduce keywords and
>>>provide report how many times they used and in which paragraph (search
>>>engines savvy) -- just to name few things from the big list you can find
> 
> on
> 
>>>a good search-engine optimization web site...
>>
>>Patches are welcome.
> 
> Then welcome more patchers with more attractive product idea.

I was referring to your comment above that you had
to "clean up Forrest". With that approach, you will
need to clean up every time that you upgrade, thereby
creating a management nightmare for yourself.

>I suggest to
> replace "documentation" with "content generation and management": "Apache
> Forrest is an XML standards-oriented ***content generation and management***
> framework based upon Apache Cocoon, providing XSLT stylesheets and schemas,
> images and other resources. Forrest uses these to render the source content
> into a website via command-line, robot, or dynamic application. "

Not a proper description. Forrest does not generate
content nor does it manage content. We cannot mislead
our users.

--David

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