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From cross...@apache.org
Subject svn commit: r294952 [2/2] - /forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20051004-log.txt
Date Wed, 05 Oct 2005 00:14:01 GMT

Modified: forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20051004-log.txt
URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs/forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20051004-log.txt?rev=294952&r1=294951&r2=294952&view=diff
==============================================================================
--- forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20051004-log.txt (original)
+++ forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20051004-log.txt Tue Oct  4 17:13:49 2005
@@ -7,11 +7,11 @@
 Oct 04 16:36:34 ---	zelazny.freenode.net sets mode +s #for-oct
 Oct 04 16:36:34 ---	#for-oct :[freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
 Oct 04 16:38:00 ---	xley2 has changed the topic to: ForrestTuesday: cleanup Jira
-Oct 04 16:49:22 -->	crossley has joined #for-oct
-Oct 04 17:32:35 -->	rgardler has joined #for-oct
+Oct 04 16:49:22 -->	crossley (n=crossley) has joined #for-oct
+Oct 04 17:32:35 -->	rgardler (n=chatzill) has joined #for-oct
 Oct 04 17:32:58 <rgardler>	Morning/Evening David
 Oct 04 17:33:36 <crossley>	Evening/Morning Ross
-Oct 04 17:33:54 -->	tscherler has joined #for-oct
+Oct 04 17:33:54 -->	tscherler (n=thorsten) has joined #for-oct
 Oct 04 17:34:20 ---	tscherler is now known as tscherler_just_l
 Oct 04 17:35:27 <rgardler>	Hey Thorsten, good to see you, i was just asking a question on list
 Oct 04 17:36:09 <tscherler_just_l>	yeah hi all
@@ -256,3 +256,1162 @@
 Oct 04 19:47:12 <tscherler_afk>	jeje nice logo ;-)
 Oct 04 19:47:25 <cheche>	but it is not mine...
 Oct 04 19:48:04 <tscherler_afk>	i know
+Oct 04 20:43:45 -->	xley (n=crossley@apache/committer/xley) has joined #for-oct
+Oct 04 20:44:39 <--	crossley has quit ()
+Oct 04 22:20:11 -->	ipv6guru (n=gavinmcd) has joined #for-oct
+Oct 04 22:20:52 <ipv6guru>	Hi Guys
+Oct 04 22:22:23 ---	ipv6guru is now known as _Gav_
+Oct 04 22:51:37 -->	kronenpj (n=kronenpj) has joined #for-oct
+Oct 04 23:01:47 <tscherler_afk>	hi gav
+Oct 04 23:01:50 <tscherler_afk>	hi all
+Oct 04 23:08:08 <_Gav_>	Aha, we are alive
+Oct 04 23:08:31 <_Gav_>	Whats happening?
+Oct 04 23:08:41 <tscherler_afk>	I am working
+Oct 04 23:08:59 <_Gav_>	I not long got back from work
+Oct 04 23:09:33 <_Gav_>	I have had a couple of weeks break from forrest and am a bit lost at the moment, and after an svn up the other day
+Oct 04 23:09:43 <_Gav_>	I can not even run a forrest test
+Oct 04 23:10:11 <tscherler_afk>	what is the prob?
+Oct 04 23:10:28 <_Gav_>	I'd like to being again helping with views, maybe css or .ft or whatever you need, but need to have a working forrest
+Oct 04 23:10:46 <_Gav_>	will paste the output here in a sec if thats ok
+Oct 04 23:11:09 <tscherler_afk>	use better pastbin.org
+Oct 04 23:12:08 <tscherler_afk>	pastebin.com I mean
+Oct 04 23:12:33 <tscherler_afk>	otherotherwise you may get an overflow and kicked from the channel
+Oct 04 23:13:01 <_Gav_>	ok
+Oct 04 23:18:48 <_Gav_>	http://pastebin.com/382568
+Oct 04 23:19:37 <_Gav_>	I seem to have broken something. It is ok to have latest svn isn't it , I don't need to rollback or anything ?
+Oct 04 23:20:23 <tscherler_afk>	file:/C :/Apache2/forrest/main/webapp/WEB-INF/cocoon.xconf:30:62
+Oct 04 23:20:51 <tscherler_afk>	can you see whether you have a conflict there?
+Oct 04 23:21:02 <_Gav_>	ok
+Oct 04 23:21:13 <tscherler_afk>	better paste the row 30 
+Oct 04 23:21:19 <tscherler_afk>	here ;-)
+Oct 04 23:24:17 <_Gav_>	Line 30 says :-
+Oct 04 23:24:19 <_Gav_>	  <include src="context://WEB-INF/xconf/forrest-core.xconf"/
+Oct 04 23:24:46 <_Gav_>	Cocoon Version 2.2  ----> is this correct
+Oct 04 23:24:53 <tscherler_afk>	yes
+Oct 04 23:24:57 <tscherler_afk>	hmm
+Oct 04 23:25:06 <tscherler_afk>	what does a svn st say?
+Oct 04 23:27:16 <_Gav_>	whilst svn st is running , I noticed I have a corrupt forrest-core.xconf
+Oct 04 23:27:59 <_Gav_>	<<<<<<< .mine
+Oct 04 23:27:59 <_Gav_>	        <view-internal>@forrest.home@/build/plugins/org.apache.forrest.plugin.internal.xhtml2</view-internal>
+Oct 04 23:27:59 <_Gav_>	        <view-themes>@forrest.home@/build/plugins/org.apache.forrest.plugin.internal.xhtml2/resources/views</view-themes>
+Oct 04 23:27:59 <_Gav_>	=======
+Oct 04 23:27:59 <_Gav_>	        <view-internal>@forrest.home@/build/plugins/@project.view.internal.plugin@</view-internal>
+Oct 04 23:28:00 <_Gav_>	        <view-themes>@forrest.home@/build/plugins/@project.theme.plugin@/resources/views</view-themes>
+Oct 04 23:28:02 <_Gav_>	>>>>>>> .r28921
+Oct 04 23:28:16 <tscherler_afk>	that is the one
+Oct 04 23:28:17 <tscherler_afk>	;-)
+Oct 04 23:29:03 <_Gav_>	I will delete all forrest-core.xconf and diffs and re-do svn up , anything else ?
+Oct 04 23:30:48 <tscherler_afk>	make sure you do not have more C (svn conflicts) ;-)
+Oct 04 23:31:50 <_Gav_>	I thought I read on-list somewhere about having to delete some files or such, do I still need to so this
+Oct 04 23:32:56 <_Gav_>	now at revision 293592, will give this a try
+Oct 04 23:34:54 <tscherler_afk>	do you have the common-jxpath-1.2.jar in $forrest/lib/core ?
+Oct 04 23:40:44 <_Gav_>	I have : commons-jxpath-20030909.jar
+Oct 04 23:41:01 <_Gav_>	and : commons-jxpath-20030909.jar.license.txt
+Oct 04 23:41:11 <_Gav_>	but not what you said.
+Oct 04 23:41:18 <tscherler_afk>	good as gold, mate
+Oct 04 23:43:47 <kronenpj>	Quick question - From where can a common-jxpath jar be downloaded?
+Oct 04 23:44:22 <tscherler_afk>	http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/jxpath/
+Oct 04 23:44:44 <kronenpj>	Thanks...  I'll go back to sleep now ;)
+Oct 04 23:44:57 <tscherler_afk>	good night, good fight ;-)
+Oct 04 23:45:23 <kronenpj>	Oh, it's 8:45am here.  For some reason I hadn't been able to find it.
+Oct 04 23:45:52 <kronenpj>	Thanks!
+Oct 04 23:46:16 <tscherler_afk>	you're welcome
+Oct 04 23:46:35 -->	rgardler (n=chatzill) has joined #for-oct
+Oct 04 23:46:58 <rgardler>	I'm back if anyone is around... if not I'm working on the LM stuff
+Oct 04 23:51:00 <tscherler_afk>	i am going to have lunch cya
+Oct 04 23:54:15 <_Gav_>	thanks for your help ts
+Oct 04 23:54:18 <_Gav_>	Hi Ross
+Oct 05 00:02:14 <rgardler>	HI gavin, what you guys up to?
+Oct 05 00:02:24 <rgardler>	(what is the URL for JEnny logs?)
+Oct 05 00:02:52 <_Gav_>	Unfortunatly I am having probs with my forrest, so am currently deleting the lot and starting again
+Oct 05 00:03:09 <rgardler>	:-( that happens occasionally
+Oct 05 00:03:27 <_Gav_>	dont know where the log is, I only got here an hour or so ago
+Oct 05 00:03:49 <rgardler>	OK, I'll mail Cheche
+Oct 05 00:05:04 <_Gav_>	I was hoping to get up to speed and help with something, CSS or .ft but will have to wait until I have svn up'ed the lot
+Oct 05 00:06:00 <rgardler>	OK let me know when you svn'upped
+Oct 05 00:06:06 <rgardler>	we can work together on something
+Oct 05 00:07:02 <_Gav_>	ok
+Oct 05 00:17:25 <--	_Gav_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
+Oct 05 00:35:41 -->	_Gav_ (n=gavinmcd) has joined #for-oct
+Oct 05 00:36:16 <_Gav_>	damn windows, crashed on me, started again getting all of trunk
+Oct 05 00:45:57 <cheche>	rgardler: http://casa.che-che.com/~bot/forrest/forrest.log.04Oct2005
+Oct 05 00:46:15 <cheche>	I just came back home...
+Oct 05 00:46:49 -->	add1sun (n=add1sun) has joined #for-oct
+Oct 05 00:47:15 <cheche>	hi add1sun
+Oct 05 00:47:27 <add1sun>	hey all, it's addi
+Oct 05 00:47:39 <add1sun>	I can't stay on long
+Oct 05 00:47:51 <add1sun>	but was wondering if there is a live log available?
+Oct 05 00:49:05 <cheche>	http://casa.che-che.com/~bot/forrest/forrest.log.04Oct2005
+Oct 05 00:53:04 <_Gav_>	Just ignore my problems, they can be cut-out
+Oct 05 00:53:08 <_Gav_>	:)
+Oct 05 00:53:26 <rgardler>	Thanks for log Cheche
+Oct 05 00:53:28 <rgardler>	Hi Addi
+Oct 05 00:54:59 <--	add1sun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
+Oct 05 00:55:06 -->	add1sun (n=add1sun) has joined #for-oct
+Oct 05 00:55:33 <add1sun>	whoops, didn't mean to disconnect
+Oct 05 00:55:38 <add1sun>	thanks for the link
+Oct 05 00:55:51 <add1sun>	i'll try to come back later
+Oct 05 00:56:05 <rgardler>	See you later Addi
+Oct 05 00:56:17 <rgardler>	Gavin, you got Forrest working yet?
+Oct 05 00:56:25 <--	add1sun (n=add1sun) has left #for-oct
+Oct 05 01:00:15 <_Gav_>	would you believe svn is still getting it
+Oct 05 01:00:40 <_Gav_>	Computer crashed during first attempt (see 21:36)
+Oct 05 01:01:24 <_Gav_>	What are you working on anyway?
+Oct 05 01:02:43 <_Gav_>	Should be 15:36 in log
+Oct 05 01:02:45 <rgardler>	I'm still working on refactoring the sitemaps for LM
+Oct 05 01:03:26 <_Gav_>	What do you have to do for that
+Oct 05 01:03:38 <rgardler>	It's pretty simple really...
+Oct 05 01:03:42 <rgardler>	do you know how the LM works?
+Oct 05 01:04:23 <_Gav_>	Hmm, not really, having had a couple of weeks off, I have not really looked at LM, but I can when I am running again
+Oct 05 01:04:46 <rgardler>	OK, here's the whistelstop tour - full details are at
+Oct 05 01:05:07 <rgardler>	http://forrest.apache.org/docs_0_80/locationmap.html
+Oct 05 01:05:14 <rgardler>	The locationmap allows us to
+Oct 05 01:05:27 <rgardler>	separate the client URLspace from the source urlspace
+Oct 05 01:05:39 <rgardler>	so a client can ask for domain.org/some/file.html
+Oct 05 01:06:00 <rgardler>	but the source can come from http://svn.apache.org/an/unrelated/location (for example)
+Oct 05 01:06:13 <rgardler>	This allows us to build the src structure to suit
+Oct 05 01:06:16 <rgardler>	the editor
+Oct 05 01:06:23 <rgardler>	and build the urlspcae to suit the user
+Oct 05 01:06:31 <rgardler>	(with me so far?)
+Oct 05 01:07:10 <_Gav_>	Yep, with you there. Same file, different location
+Oct 05 01:07:17 <rgardler>	OK
+Oct 05 01:07:27 <rgardler>	This magic is done through the lm: protocol in the sitemap and
+Oct 05 01:07:31 <rgardler>	the locationmap.xml file
+Oct 05 01:07:36 <rgardler>	You can see a location map at
+Oct 05 01:08:12 <rgardler>	http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/forrest/trunk/main/webapp/locationmap.xml
+Oct 05 01:08:25 <rgardler>	In there there are no locators, only mounts, they mount files like this one:
+Oct 05 01:08:35 <rgardler>	http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/forrest/trunk/main/webapp/locationmap-transforms.xml
+Oct 05 01:08:49 <rgardler>	The mounting is like an import
+Oct 05 01:08:52 <rgardler>	(still with me?)
+Oct 05 01:09:30 <_Gav_>	ok, yep, will understand more by doing, but this theory is good
+Oct 05 01:09:40 <rgardler>	We are very nearly at the doing ;-)
+Oct 05 01:09:50 <_Gav_>	cool
+Oct 05 01:09:57 <rgardler>	If you take a look at the second link above, you will see
+Oct 05 01:10:09 <rgardler>	<match pattern="transform.*.*">
+Oct 05 01:10:13 <rgardler>	right at the end of the file
+Oct 05 01:10:26 <rgardler>	in there you will see a number of loctions like this:
+Oct 05 01:10:33 <rgardler>	<location src="{project:skins-dir}{forrest:skin}/xslt/html/{1}2{2}.xsl" />
+Oct 05 01:10:47 <rgardler>	Notce the match is like those in the sitemap
+Oct 05 01:10:59 <rgardler>	and we can use the elements matched in the same way with {1} and {2}
+Oct 05 01:11:10 <rgardler>	OK, no to see it used...
+Oct 05 01:11:12 <rgardler>	Take a look at
+Oct 05 01:12:07 <rgardler>	http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/forrest/trunk/main/webapp/sitemap.xmap?rev=293018&r1=293014&r2=293018&diff_format=h
+Oct 05 01:12:19 <rgardler>	Notice how a big chunk of the sitemap is now replaced with
+Oct 05 01:12:30 <rgardler>	<map:transform src="{lm:transform.document.fo}">
+Oct 05 01:12:44 <rgardler>	(do you see how it works?)
+Oct 05 01:15:32 <_Gav_>	Sort of, I am not familar with what {1} and {2} are though
+Oct 05 01:15:44 <rgardler>	OK
+Oct 05 01:15:47 <_Gav_>	in the coding sense
+Oct 05 01:16:00 <rgardler>	it's the same in the locationmap as it is in the sitemap...
+Oct 05 01:16:16 <rgardler>	say we have a pattern of "somefile.*"
+Oct 05 01:16:36 <rgardler>	this will match a request for "somefile.html" and for "somefile.xml"
+Oct 05 01:16:44 <rgardler>	In the first instance {1} = "html"
+Oct 05 01:16:51 <rgardler>	int the second {1} = "xml"
+Oct 05 01:17:01 <rgardler>	so...
+Oct 05 01:17:22 <rgardler>	lm:transform.document.fo will be matched by transform.*.*
+Oct 05 01:17:35 <rgardler>	{1} = document {2} = fo
+Oct 05 01:17:50 <rgardler>	Does that help?
+Oct 05 01:18:57 <_Gav_>	ok, {1}2{2} == document2fo
+Oct 05 01:19:50 <rgardler>	You got it!
+Oct 05 01:19:52 <_Gav_>	Thats a lot less coding at http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/forrest/trunk/main/webapp/sitemap.xmap?rev=293018&r1=293014&r2=293018&diff_format=h
+Oct 05 01:20:01 <_Gav_>	:)
+Oct 05 01:20:17 <rgardler>	(hong on phone ringing)
+Oct 05 01:22:30 <rgardler>	Yes, it has advantages for amount of code, but also
+Oct 05 01:22:40 <rgardler>	in that we can now change the location without touching the
+Oct 05 01:22:41 <rgardler>	sitemaps
+Oct 05 01:22:53 <rgardler>	very useful for customising individuals sites
+Oct 05 01:23:16 <rgardler>	What I am trying to do now is go through all the sitemaps and use the locationmap
+Oct 05 01:23:47 <rgardler>	See http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FOR-200
+Oct 05 01:24:20 <_Gav_>	Ok, yep, so is the replace process identical for all sitemaps
+Oct 05 01:24:34 <_Gav_>	<map:select type="exists">               
+Oct 05 01:24:35 <_Gav_>	<map:when test="{project:skins-dir}
+Oct 05 01:24:35 <_Gav_>	{forrest:skin}/xslt/fo/document2fo.xsl">   
+Oct 05 01:24:35 <_Gav_>	<map:transform src="{project:skins-dir}
+Oct 05 01:24:35 <_Gav_>	{forrest:skin}/xslt/fo/document2fo.xsl"> 
+Oct 05 01:24:40 <_Gav_>	replace with
+Oct 05 01:24:46 <_Gav_>	<map:transform src="{lm:transform.document.fo}">
+Oct 05 01:24:54 <rgardler>	Yes, but it goes further
+Oct 05 01:24:57 <_Gav_>	except for the names]
+Oct 05 01:25:07 <_Gav_>	ok
+Oct 05 01:25:31 <rgardler>	My aim is to replace all {forrest:*} and {project:*} variables
+Oct 05 01:25:42 <rgardler>	this is to facilitate the issue at
+Oct 05 01:25:54 <rgardler>	http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FOR-588
+Oct 05 01:26:01 <rgardler>	for example:
+Oct 05 01:26:18 <rgardler>	{project:skinconf} becomes {lm:project.skinconf}
+Oct 05 01:26:47 <rgardler>	There is a naming convention defined at http://forrest.apache.org/docs_0_80/locationmap.html
+Oct 05 01:26:51 <rgardler>	but it is not complete yet
+Oct 05 01:27:25 <tscherler_afk>	btw the lm stuff and views together make forrest a renderer that could be used in other appz without major changes
+Oct 05 01:27:37 <rgardler>	Hi Thorsten...
+Oct 05 01:27:51 <rgardler>	Yes, I have not touched on the massive power the two together create
+Oct 05 01:28:03 <_Gav_>	Hi T
+Oct 05 01:28:25 <tscherler_afk>	hi again
+Oct 05 01:28:30 <tscherler_afk>	back from lunch
+Oct 05 01:28:46 <_Gav_>	I think a few brain cells are doing something
+Oct 05 01:29:44 <rgardler>	We seem to have that effect on each other here :-)
+Oct 05 01:30:05 <_Gav_>	yep
+Oct 05 01:30:08 <rgardler>	So, Thorsten, I read the logs regarrding site: and ext:
+Oct 05 01:30:17 <rgardler>	care to start where we left off?
+Oct 05 01:30:47 <tscherler_afk>	problem is that I am still at work  :(
+Oct 05 01:31:09 <tscherler_afk>	can help with throwing in ideas but not with coding :(
+Oct 05 01:31:16 <tscherler_afk>	atm
+Oct 05 01:31:28 <rgardler>	OK, no probs
+Oct 05 01:31:39 <rgardler>	Can you talk for a few mns?
+Oct 05 01:31:47 <tscherler_afk>	sure
+Oct 05 01:31:51 <rgardler>	OK
+Oct 05 01:32:13 <rgardler>	I see both David and yourself were concerned that if we got rid of site: and ext:
+Oct 05 01:32:22 <rgardler>	we would be in danger of not supporting current users
+Oct 05 01:32:27 <rgardler>	this is, of course, valid
+Oct 05 01:32:36 <rgardler>	I was thinking that if we did it
+Oct 05 01:32:59 <rgardler>	we could provide some XSL and scripts to upgrade
+Oct 05 01:33:04 <rgardler>	What do you think?
+Oct 05 01:33:24 <tscherler_afk>	so to get you right
+Oct 05 01:33:50 <tscherler_afk>	you would transform site:bla to lm:site:bla ?
+Oct 05 01:34:04 <tscherler_afk>	something like that?
+Oct 05 01:34:31 <rgardler>	yes, something like that
+Oct 05 01:34:36 <tscherler_afk>	what we have not test it is whether lm is working with jxpath-1.2
+Oct 05 01:35:07 <rgardler>	very good point :-))
+Oct 05 01:35:13 <tscherler_afk>	;-)
+Oct 05 01:35:29 <rgardler>	Although, my motivation for suggesting deprecation of site: and ext:
+Oct 05 01:35:37 <rgardler>	is not only as a workaround for the JXPath issue
+Oct 05 01:35:48 <rgardler>	I don't like duplication and lm: does both
+Oct 05 01:37:34 <tscherler_afk>	good point
+Oct 05 01:37:53 <tscherler_afk>	and it is easier extensible 
+Oct 05 01:38:07 <rgardler>	and it allows us to use a DTD for site.xml
+Oct 05 01:39:06 <rgardler>	OK. I'll let you get some work done
+Oct 05 01:39:20 <rgardler>	If you can test lm: with JXPath on your local installation that would be great
+Oct 05 01:39:29 <rgardler>	I'll carry on with the LM refactoring for now
+Oct 05 01:40:14 <tscherler_afk>	ok
+Oct 05 01:40:27 <rgardler>	Gavin, fancy giving me a hand with the LM stuff?
+Oct 05 01:46:13 <_Gav_>	yep, svn still downloading, hopefully wont be much longer :|
+Oct 05 01:46:37 <_Gav_>	Am taking a browse though FOR:200 now.
+Oct 05 01:50:37 <_Gav_>	Those 2 patches of Tims seem to be putting in similar to what you are taking out ?#
+Oct 05 01:50:55 <_Gav_>	Was these patches earlier thoughts
+Oct 05 01:51:44 <rgardler>	YEs, the patches have been applied now
+Oct 05 01:51:50 <rgardler>	We are working on the subtasks
+Oct 05 01:52:12 <rgardler>	i.e. using the lm: in each of the sitemaps
+Oct 05 01:53:17 <_Gav_>	woohoo Revsion 293601, svn complete.
+Oct 05 01:53:39 <_Gav_>	How are you going about testing these LM changes?
+Oct 05 01:54:27 <_Gav_>	what do you want me to have a go at?
+Oct 05 01:55:04 <rgardler>	All testing is done by:
+Oct 05 01:55:10 <_Gav_>	P.S - It's nearly 11:PM over here, so I'll give it an hour and then carry on in the morning
+Oct 05 01:55:17 <rgardler>	cd FORREST_HOME/main
+Oct 05 01:55:32 <rgardler>	./build.[sh|bat] test
+Oct 05 01:55:42 <rgardler>	This will do some tests but they are not complete
+Oct 05 01:55:58 <rgardler>	An hour is good, we'll be well up to speed by then.
+Oct 05 01:57:06 <rgardler>	I just did issues.xmap, how about you have a go at linkmap.xmap
+Oct 05 01:57:13 <rgardler>	any problems, just holler
+Oct 05 01:57:53 <_Gav_>	ok, will do
+Oct 05 01:58:24 <rgardler>	NB - I have not looked at the linkmap.xmap - so I'm not sure if it is a simple one  or not
+Oct 05 01:58:43 <_Gav_>	cheers :)
+Oct 05 01:59:46 <rgardler>	do SVN up now, I just committed a couple more changes, will save conflicts in your edits of locationmap.xml
+Oct 05 02:00:40 <_Gav_>	ok, is it good to do a build clean, build, build test - after every svn up?
+Oct 05 02:01:06 <rgardler>	Generally you only need do that if there has been a change to Java (which there hasn't this time)
+Oct 05 02:01:18 <rgardler>	I only do it if java has changed or I am seeing strange effects
+Oct 05 02:02:25 <_Gav_>	ok, as an aside, why do I still get output.pdf not found error
+Oct 05 02:02:55 <rgardler>	hen running waht command?
+Oct 05 02:03:46 <_Gav_>	build test, forrest site etc
+Oct 05 02:06:07 <_Gav_>	configure cocoon: path/../org.apache.forrest.plugin.output.pdf\conf not found
+Oct 05 02:06:47 <_Gav_>	I have had this error since I first encountered forrest, and a clean install today has not changed it
+Oct 05 02:07:06 <_Gav_>	doesn't seem to effect anything I have been doing though.
+Oct 05 02:08:40 <rgardler>	Hang on I'm trying to duplicate
+Oct 05 02:09:24 <rgardler>	I'll be back to this issue, I just realised I broke SVN head with my last commit
+Oct 05 02:09:28 <rgardler>	must fix that immediately
+Oct 05 02:12:24 <_Gav_>	oops
+Oct 05 02:16:28 <rgardler>	OK, fixed now (forgot to svn add one of the files_)
+Oct 05 02:16:42 <rgardler>	This shows that in answer you your question:
+Oct 05 02:17:24 <rgardler>	How do we test the LM stuff?
+Oct 05 02:17:33 <rgardler>	I should have said...
+Oct 05 02:17:41 <rgardler>	build test __AND__
+Oct 05 02:17:48 <rgardler>	forrest site in site-author
+Oct 05 02:18:00 <rgardler>	back to you output.pdf problem
+Oct 05 02:18:07 <rgardler>	let me try and reproduce
+Oct 05 02:23:05 <rgardler>	damn, I have still broken trunk!
+Oct 05 02:28:23 -->	diwaker (n=diwaker) has joined #for-oct
+Oct 05 02:30:16 -->	ferdinandSoethe (n=ferdinan) has joined #for-oct
+Oct 05 02:30:38 <_Gav_>	Hi Guys
+Oct 05 02:31:39 <ferdinandSoethe>	Hi everybody. Sorry to be so late, appointments all day ...
+Oct 05 02:32:18 <_Gav_>	no probs, you just missed a confused .self
+Oct 05 02:32:49 <ferdinandSoethe>	what does that mean?
+Oct 05 02:33:26 <_Gav_>	I was confused, but the cloud is slowly lifting
+Oct 05 02:34:04 <_Gav_>	Ross: in linkmap.xmap, the first change I see is <map:transform src="{forrest:stylesheets}/linkmap2document.xsl"/
+Oct 05 02:34:08 <ferdinandSoethe>	Ah, I see. Hope not one of the many clouds I created around some silly mistakes :-)
+Oct 05 02:34:10 <ferdinandSoethe>	btw: who is Paul Kronenwetter?
+Oct 05 02:35:10 <rgardler>	Gav: that would be {lm:transform.linkmap.document} and would be matched by the matcher we were referring to earlier
+Oct 05 02:35:21 <rgardler>	High Ferdinand - welcome
+Oct 05 02:35:34 <rgardler>	Good question (re Paul)
+Oct 05 02:35:49 <rgardler>	Welcome Paul, care to introduce yourself?
+Oct 05 02:36:26 <_Gav_>	ok
+Oct 05 02:36:49 <ferdinandSoethe>	are you guys discussing cleaning up the sitemaps? should I, can I chip in a question re the html pipeline or should I wait till you get to forrest.xmap?
+Oct 05 02:37:14 <rgardler>	Ferdinand, I think I just broke head...
+Oct 05 02:37:19 <rgardler>	let me revert my changes and I'll come back to you...
+Oct 05 02:38:04 <ferdinandSoethe>	Sure, no problem. I'll take another look at my problem in html-transformations
+Oct 05 02:40:25 <ferdinandSoethe>	Ross: I finally read the docs on locationmaps. Really liked the docs and the mechanism. Reading it make me wonder why we should still have all those variables for directories in Forrest.properties.
+Oct 05 02:41:18 <ferdinandSoethe>	Shouldn't /couldn't we do away with a few layers of indirections and base all of it on locationmaps?
+Oct 05 02:42:14 <kronenpj>	Oh, Hi! I'm Paul...  I'm lurking, for lack of a better word.  Just trying to get a better grasp on views.
+Oct 05 02:43:04 <ferdinandSoethe>	Welcome!
+Oct 05 02:43:10 <_Gav_>	Aren't we all :)
+Oct 05 02:43:20 <kronenpj>	Thanks!  I hope to be able to help someday, but that is not today...
+Oct 05 02:43:49 <ferdinandSoethe>	Well you could help us break head, couldn't you :-)
+Oct 05 02:43:52 <kronenpj>	_Gav_: Perhaps, but some code... :>
+Oct 05 02:44:17 <kronenpj>	I suppose I could, but I'm not sure I have a working version of forrest to start with...
+Oct 05 02:47:00 <diwaker>	hi everyone
+Oct 05 02:48:50 *	diwaker is back.
+Oct 05 02:48:59 <ferdinandSoethe>	Hi Diwaker. How is San Diego? Are you planning on attending ApacheCon?
+Oct 05 02:49:10 <diwaker>	san diego's warm and sunny as ever
+Oct 05 02:49:44 <diwaker>	apachecon -- not sure. i'm going to be out of country at that time i think
+Oct 05 02:50:12 <rgardler>	Hi diwaker - good to see you again
+Oct 05 02:50:35 <rgardler>	All: head is a (little) broken and I have no idea why
+Oct 05 02:50:53 <rgardler>	is there anyone here who has not updated from SVN today?
+Oct 05 02:50:58 <diwaker>	i haven't
+Oct 05 02:51:05 <rgardler>	Cool, can you do a test for me?
+Oct 05 02:51:08 <diwaker>	sure
+Oct 05 02:51:09 <diwaker>	shoot
+Oct 05 02:51:13 <rgardler>	(saves me reverting changes)
+Oct 05 02:51:19 <ferdinandSoethe>	me too
+Oct 05 02:51:23 <rgardler>	do a forrest run in site-author
+Oct 05 02:51:28 <rgardler>	then try getting...
+Oct 05 02:51:35 <_Gav_>	Ross : Entry in locationmap-transforms.xml has already a <location src="{forrest:stylesheets}/{1}2{2}.xsl"/>
+Oct 05 02:51:36 <rgardler>	http://localhost:8888/docs_0_80/changes.rss
+Oct 05 02:52:38 <rgardler>	Gav. that match will correctly match the one you are adding, i.e.
+Oct 05 02:52:39 <diwaker>	says resource not found
+Oct 05 02:52:54 <rgardler>	{lm:trasnform.linkmap.document}
+Oct 05 02:53:21 <_Gav_>	cool, next.
+Oct 05 02:53:24 <rgardler>	will be translated to {forrest:stylesheets}/linkmap2document.xsl by the line you quote
+Oct 05 02:53:41 <rgardler>	diwaker - thanks it appears I didn't break it today then :-)
+Oct 05 02:53:45 <rgardler>	what revision do you have?
+Oct 05 02:54:02 <diwaker>	293498
+Oct 05 02:54:13 <rgardler>	OK, anyone got any earlier than that?
+Oct 05 02:54:25 <_Gav_>	294747 for me
+Oct 05 02:55:09 <rgardler>	OK, I'm trying to find the problem
+Oct 05 02:55:18 <rgardler>	Ferdinand, fire with your problem when you are ready
+Oct 05 02:56:18 <ferdinandSoethe>	Well my problem re sitemaps is really question: Why do we use IDgen twice in the html pipeline?
+Oct 05 02:56:46 <_Gav_>	My time is up, will turn into a pumpkin anytime now, will continue with linkmap.xmap in the morning.
+Oct 05 02:57:25 <tscherler_afk>	hi all bye all
+Oct 05 02:57:31 <tscherler_afk>	I will go home
+Oct 05 02:57:32 <ferdinandSoethe>	Good nite
+Oct 05 02:57:40 <rgardler>	OK Gav, I'll leave it for you then ;-) - thanks for your help
+Oct 05 02:57:40 <tscherler_afk>	maybe I have internet
+Oct 05 02:57:46 <ferdinandSoethe>	Bye Torsten
+Oct 05 02:57:51 <rgardler>	See you later Thorsten (we hope)
+Oct 05 02:58:14 <--	tscherler_afk (n=thorsten) has left #for-oct
+Oct 05 02:58:25 <_Gav_>	NO probs, will check my work with you then, I guess you'll be gone when I get up.
+Oct 05 02:58:46 <rgardler>	Probably, 5 pm here now
+Oct 05 02:59:02 <rgardler>	just attach a patch to jira, I'll look at it when I get up
+Oct 05 02:59:52 *	diwaker is away: off to school
+Oct 05 03:00:51 <rgardler>	Ferdinand - ID gen twice? Hmmm, let me look
+Oct 05 03:01:36 <rgardler>	I only see it once (in forrest.xmap) should I be looking elsewhere?
+Oct 05 03:02:00 <ferdinandSoethe>	yes, in sitemap is a second one
+Oct 05 03:02:16 <rgardler>	OK, hang on...
+Oct 05 03:02:38 <ferdinandSoethe>	<map:match pattern="**body-*.html">
+Oct 05 03:03:12 <ferdinandSoethe>	And this one - as far as I can tell - is called for all documents
+Oct 05 03:03:41 <rgardler>	Yes, it looks like an error to me
+Oct 05 03:03:52 <rgardler>	have you tried removing the i18n one in forrest.xmap?
+Oct 05 03:04:01 <ferdinandSoethe>	no
+Oct 05 03:05:00 <rgardler>	I think it can be safely removed, give it a try if it is causing you problems
+Oct 05 03:05:32 <ferdinandSoethe>	OK, so I'll take that out right now and commit strait away?
+Oct 05 03:05:50 <rgardler>	After testing of course...
+Oct 05 03:06:21 <rgardler>	The only problem I see is that if someone requests *.xml and it is generated from
+Oct 05 03:06:30 <rgardler>	an *.html file it will not have ids
+Oct 05 03:06:39 <rgardler>	perhaps we should do it the other way around
+Oct 05 03:06:44 <rgardler>	take it out of body-*
+Oct 05 03:06:49 <rgardler>	and add it to all *.xml matchers
+Oct 05 03:06:52 <rgardler>	WDYT?
+Oct 05 03:07:28 <ferdinandSoethe>	hmmm, not very elegant. Why would sdy need ids in XML. This is typically a final processing step, not?
+Oct 05 03:07:46 <rgardler>	Not necessarily...
+Oct 05 03:08:32 <rgardler>	Someone may use the *.xml request to get some content for inclusion elswhere via xi:include
+Oct 05 03:09:01 <rgardler>	(that ay be why it was added in the first place - looking to see who added it)
+Oct 05 03:10:16 <ferdinandSoethe>	ok, but why not generate the ids at the end of their post processing. After all, these IDs are really to fac. local navigation, they are no something I'd like to have in my 
+Oct 05 03:10:40 <ferdinandSoethe>	original xml (just bloating tsorage)
+Oct 05 03:10:52 <rgardler>	Yes, you are correct
+Oct 05 03:11:10 <ferdinandSoethe>	and besides, as diwaker pointed out, our id's are not even xml conforming
+Oct 05 03:11:14 <rgardler>	I say remove it in the i18n matchers, we can always check with whoever did the original commit
+Oct 05 03:11:47 <ferdinandSoethe>	ok, will do that. meanwhile, here is sth I asked earlier while you were fixing things:
+Oct 05 03:11:49 <ferdinandSoethe>	Ross: I finally read the docs on locationmaps. Really liked the docs and the mechanism. Reading it make me wonder why we should still have all those variables for directories in Forrest.properties.
+Oct 05 03:11:50 <ferdinandSoethe>		Shouldn't /couldn't we do away with a few layers of indirections and base all of it on locationmaps?
+Oct 05 03:13:04 <rgardler>	You are right
+Oct 05 03:13:08 <rgardler>	it is a two stage process though
+Oct 05 03:13:30 <ferdinandSoethe>	Quick test everythings looks ok. I'll check in the change.
+Oct 05 03:13:35 <rgardler>	See http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FOR-200
+Oct 05 03:13:46 <rgardler>	which blocks http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FOR-588
+Oct 05 03:13:56 <rgardler>	The second of these removes the indirection
+Oct 05 03:14:01 <rgardler>	the first is what I am currently doing
+Oct 05 03:15:26 <ferdinandSoethe>	ok will check that out. is there time for a question re the html cleanup?
+Oct 05 03:15:48 <rgardler>	yes - you are keeping me from finding the changes.rss bug and that is annoying e now
+Oct 05 03:16:28 <ferdinandSoethe>	it is what?
+Oct 05 03:16:57 <rgardler>	sorry - it is annoying me now (i.e. I wnat to be distrcted from it)
+Oct 05 03:17:15 <ferdinandSoethe>	ok, no problem ...
+Oct 05 03:17:34 <ferdinandSoethe>	so here is the remaining problem (I posted the rest to the list)
+Oct 05 03:18:36 <ferdinandSoethe>	This template here is not doing what is should be
+Oct 05 03:18:38 <ferdinandSoethe>	<xsl:template match="table">
+Oct 05 03:18:40 <ferdinandSoethe>	    <xsl:apply-templates select="@id"/>
+Oct 05 03:18:42 <ferdinandSoethe>	    <xsl:choose>
+Oct 05 03:18:43 <ferdinandSoethe>	      <!-- Limit Forrest specific processing  to tables without class -->
+Oct 05 03:18:45 <ferdinandSoethe>	      <xsl:when test="@class = ''">
+Oct 05 03:18:46 <ferdinandSoethe>	        <table cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" class="ForrestTable">
+Oct 05 03:18:48 <ferdinandSoethe>	          <xsl:copy-of select="@cellspacing | @cellpadding | @border | @class | @bgcolor |@id"/>
+Oct 05 03:18:49 <ferdinandSoethe>	          <xsl:apply-templates/>
+Oct 05 03:18:51 <ferdinandSoethe>	        </table>    
+Oct 05 03:18:52 <ferdinandSoethe>	      </xsl:when>
+Oct 05 03:18:54 <ferdinandSoethe>	      <xsl:otherwise>
+Oct 05 03:18:55 <ferdinandSoethe>	        <!-- Tables with class are passed without change -->
+Oct 05 03:18:57 <ferdinandSoethe>	        <xsl:copy>
+Oct 05 03:18:58 <ferdinandSoethe>	          <xsl:copy-of select="@*"/>
+Oct 05 03:19:00 <ferdinandSoethe>	          <xsl:apply-templates/>
+Oct 05 03:19:01 <ferdinandSoethe>	        </xsl:copy>    
+Oct 05 03:19:03 <ferdinandSoethe>	        
+Oct 05 03:19:04 <ferdinandSoethe>	      </xsl:otherwise>
+Oct 05 03:19:06 <ferdinandSoethe>	    </xsl:choose>
+Oct 05 03:19:08 <ferdinandSoethe>	    <xsl:if test="@class = ''">
+Oct 05 03:19:10 <ferdinandSoethe>	      
+Oct 05 03:19:11 <ferdinandSoethe>	    </xsl:if>
+Oct 05 03:19:13 <ferdinandSoethe>	  </xsl:template>
+Oct 05 03:19:15 <ferdinandSoethe>	Can you see why it would always go into the otherwise-branch even if I set the test to true?
+Oct 05 03:20:49 <rgardler>	Did you see the commit by david: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/forrest/trunk/main/webapp/skins/common/xslt/html/document2html.xsl?rev=293531&view=log
+Oct 05 03:21:48 <ferdinandSoethe>	not yet. will check it out right away.
+Oct 05 03:22:10 <rgardler>	(incidentally a tip from Thorsten: http://www.pastebin.com - very useful when using IRC)
+Oct 05 03:22:21 <rgardler>	Take a look at that commit and see if it answers your question
+Oct 05 03:23:22 <ferdinandSoethe>	hmmm. Interesting change. will try that right away.
+Oct 05 03:25:17 <rgardler>	Basically, if a node does not exist it will return false
+Oct 05 03:25:31 <rgardler>	if a node does exist but is empty then you need the ='' test
+Oct 05 03:25:49 <rgardler>	so not(@class} will return true if the node doesn't exist
+Oct 05 03:26:02 <rgardler>	in programming terms null != ''
+Oct 05 03:27:42 <ferdinandSoethe>	works like a charm. I had assumed that non existant attributes can be tested like non existant elements. Now I know better. Thanks David.
+Oct 05 03:28:05 <rgardler>	Stung me a while back too - wish David sat by me at all times ;-)
+Oct 05 03:29:17 <rgardler>	Do you remember wanting a schema for site.xml and not being able to have one becuase of site: and ext:
+Oct 05 03:30:50 <ferdinandSoethe>	yes, and I still do ...
+Oct 05 03:32:16 <rgardler>	OK, well I'm here to tell you that you can have it, but at a cost...
+Oct 05 03:32:18 <ferdinandSoethe>	that pastebin stuff is nice. wish I could have that in eclipse and offline 
+Oct 05 03:32:41 <ferdinandSoethe>	ok, set the trap, I'm ready to jump in :-)
+Oct 05 03:32:46 <rgardler>	:-)
+Oct 05 03:33:41 <rgardler>	Can you read the logs, from when I first arrived this morning to when I leave (http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20051004-log.txt?rev=293577&view=markup)
+Oct 05 03:34:36 <ferdinandSoethe>	will do
+Oct 05 03:35:18 <rgardler>	and also from around 16:30 to when Thorsten goes back to work (http://casa.che-che.com/~bot/forrest/forrest.log.04Oct2005 
+Oct 05 03:35:27 <rgardler>	Then I'd like your comments on what we were discussing
+Oct 05 03:36:17 <rgardler>	(I'll be gone for 10-15mins)
+Oct 05 03:40:30 <ferdinandSoethe>	Having a good laugh about David saying "I feel depressed thinking about all the documentation changes"
+Oct 05 03:43:34 <ferdinandSoethe>	Feedback on the morning part: I'm getting a rough idea of what you proposing ... and I like it so far. Not sure that I still like it when I understand the details but for the moment this is what I see:
+Oct 05 03:47:06 <ferdinandSoethe>	we kick out ext and site and start out with site.xml as being a very simple document with a strict grammar that defines a navigation structure with a hierarchie of menu items that link to pathnames. These pathnames can be real pathnames (simple case) or they can be highjacked to a different resource by using a location map.
+Oct 05 03:50:51 <ferdinandSoethe>	What I like is the 2 step approach with clear separation of complexity layers (what I mean is that novice users never have to deal with indirections until they need them). What I don't like so much is that once you start using location maps you always have to look at two documents to know what a menu item will actually do. In that sense I think that site.xml is much more elegant. BTW. During...
+Oct 05 03:50:53 <ferdinandSoethe>	...the last discussion we hand in this sbdy (Nicola Ken?) suggested that we could rather easily switch from unique element names to id's in site because the original problem was not longer there.
+Oct 05 03:53:50 <ferdinandSoethe>	anybody still following or am I on my own with Jenny once more?
+Oct 05 03:54:17 <rgardler>	Did you miss that I said I'd be away for a short while, just come back anyway - reading your comments
+Oct 05 03:55:13 <ferdinandSoethe>	No I didn't. I just thought I'd have time to flirt ...
+Oct 05 03:55:36 <rgardler>	:-))
+Oct 05 03:55:47 <rgardler>	OK, to your comments..
+Oct 05 03:55:56 <rgardler>	You have the basic idea, yes
+Oct 05 03:56:22 <rgardler>	regarding the problem of now knowing where to look for a file see...
+Oct 05 03:57:00 <rgardler>	http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=112814359618995&w=2
+Oct 05 03:58:22 <rgardler>	With respect to id's, that could (theoretically be done, but by who?) however...
+Oct 05 03:58:51 <ferdinandSoethe>	I don't see this improving things much. As long as we hand edit site providing a report is just not enough.
+Oct 05 03:58:52 <rgardler>	See my comments in the log at 1635 (http://casa.che-che.com/~bot/forrest/forrest.log.04Oct2005)
+Oct 05 03:59:57 <rgardler>	(i.e. site: ext: and lm: all duplicate functionlaity)
+Oct 05 04:01:59 <rgardler>	\stalk ferdinand
+Oct 05 04:02:09 <rgardler>	(sorry wrong slash )
+Oct 05 04:02:15 <ferdinandSoethe>	pardon?
+Oct 05 04:02:29 <rgardler>	it should have been a forward slash
+Oct 05 04:02:44 <rgardler>	then it would have been a command to IRC - nothing to do with real life - honest ;-)
+Oct 05 04:03:20 <ferdinandSoethe>	ok, you give me a minute with jenny and I won't tell ...
+Oct 05 04:03:32 <rgardler>	:-))
+Oct 05 04:04:18 <rgardler>	About your concerns re readability in sitemap
+Oct 05 04:04:22 <rgardler>	(sorry site)
+Oct 05 04:04:38 <rgardler>	It is not making it any worse since
+Oct 05 04:04:54 <rgardler>	site:forrest/index is no less readable than lm:forrest.index
+Oct 05 04:05:17 <ferdinandSoethe>	read the 1635 stuff. don't see how this changes anything.
+Oct 05 04:05:20 <rgardler>	the difference is with site.xml we can't create the document mapping user space to src space
+Oct 05 04:05:43 <rgardler>	(we have two topics going at once, let me come back to the 1635 stuff)
+Oct 05 04:06:24 <ferdinandSoethe>	ah, i see. I need to explain more. my problem is not that I find site:sdfsdfsda hard to read or understand. With a bit more explanation that step of going down the virtual path in site is actually pretty easy.
+Oct 05 04:08:01 <ferdinandSoethe>	What I find hard is that I see lm:xyz in site.xml and have to look that up in lm to know what file is really the source. Now I can all do that in site then I'd have to open the second file lm or maybe even a stack of files.
+Oct 05 04:08:38 <ferdinandSoethe>	On the other hand: You get a lot more power using lm instead of site. So perhaps it does make sense.
+Oct 05 04:08:50 <rgardler>	Ah, no, now I need to explain something.
+Oct 05 04:09:00 <rgardler>	In site.xml we define the *user* space
+Oct 05 04:09:21 <rgardler>	i.e. <node label="Index" href="index.html"/>
+Oct 05 04:09:41 <rgardler>	In locationmap we define the *source* space
+Oct 05 04:10:08 <rgardler>	i.e. index.html = http:svn.apache.org/repos/forrest/turnk/blah
+Oct 05 04:12:12 <ferdinandSoethe>	yes, I understand that.So if you send me your Forrest and I look at site.xml I need to look at site and the lm to know what file is behind a menuitem. And perhaps I even have to understand and regexp to figure it out.
+Oct 05 04:12:39 <ferdinandSoethe>	Anyway. I see the tempting benefits.
+Oct 05 04:12:56 <rgardler>	No...
+Oct 05 04:13:04 <rgardler>	if I send you my forrest site.xml
+Oct 05 04:13:22 <rgardler>	you see the user space, if you need to know the source space
+Oct 05 04:13:29 <rgardler>	you need my LM yes, but...
+Oct 05 04:14:00 <rgardler>	we make Forrest respond to domain.org/filemappings.html (or whatever)
+Oct 05 04:14:05 <rgardler>	with a list like this:
+Oct 05 04:14:16 <rgardler>	index.html -> http://....
+Oct 05 04:14:30 <rgardler>	a/page.html -> file://
+Oct 05 04:14:32 <rgardler>	etc.
+Oct 05 04:14:59 <rgardler>	We could even create a contract that added it to the meta-info
+Oct 05 04:15:03 <rgardler>	in the generated page
+Oct 05 04:15:10 <ferdinandSoethe>	OK, I did understand you correctly and I think that the above list is not a great help (though better than nothing).
+Oct 05 04:15:18 <ferdinandSoethe>	However: How about
+Oct 05 04:15:29 -->	Ron_ (n=rblasch) has joined #for-oct
+Oct 05 04:15:33 <rgardler>	i.e. meta name="sourceLocation" content="blah blah"/>
+Oct 05 04:15:45 <ferdinandSoethe>	feeding back the info from the lm as a commented site.xml.
+Oct 05 04:16:16 <rgardler>	How would the comments be added?
+Oct 05 04:16:17 <ferdinandSoethe>	For example:
+Oct 05 04:16:35 <rgardler>	Hi Ron, good to see you
+Oct 05 04:16:53 <Ron_>	Hi Ross
+Oct 05 04:17:08 <ferdinandSoethe>	<node label="Index" href="index.html" lmdoc="http://...."/>
+Oct 05 04:17:32 <rgardler>	looks good, but how is @lmdoc added?
+Oct 05 04:18:38 <ferdinandSoethe>	adding a transformation that - when called - resolves the links and adds the resolved url as an additional attribute to the original element.
+Oct 05 04:18:59 <rgardler>	so it is not in the original site.xml file?
+Oct 05 04:21:18 <ferdinandSoethe>	no, it wouldn't have to be. although, if possible, I'd try and write it back right into the original site so that I have the documentation right where I'm editing.
+Oct 05 04:22:03 <rgardler>	I'm -1 for writing it back that would confuse users (they would edit in site.xml)
+Oct 05 04:22:30 <rgardler>	If it is not in the original source then what benefit does this give over having a specific index page? (no reason why we can't have both though)
+Oct 05 04:23:05 <ferdinandSoethe>	Confuse: Maybe, so you could make it a comment instead.
+Oct 05 04:24:37 <rgardler>	I'm haiving trouble understanding what benefit this gives
+Oct 05 04:24:55 <rgardler>	if someone edits the LM then you have to regenerate the page to see the results
+Oct 05 04:25:11 <ferdinandSoethe>	benefit: I look at site.xml and see a menuitem with its label and the final url right there. With the list I'd have to 'store' the virtual url in my memory (bad) and find it in the list. Imagine doing that in a list of 5000 pages, 500 of which are called index.html
+Oct 05 04:25:18 <rgardler>	I see it as being equal to Davids suggestion
+Oct 05 04:25:34 <rgardler>	OK - got it
+Oct 05 04:25:48 <ferdinandSoethe>	even with incremental search you'd have to type a lot to look up the final url.
+Oct 05 04:26:04 <rgardler>	I have the solution I think ;-)
+Oct 05 04:26:10 <rgardler>	Think views...
+Oct 05 04:26:20 <ferdinandSoethe>	confusion starting
+Oct 05 04:26:29 <rgardler>	;-)
+Oct 05 04:26:52 <rgardler>	In develope/editorr view the menu you have the src file location in the meta informatiopn
+Oct 05 04:26:56 <rgardler>	you also have it in the footer
+Oct 05 04:27:06 <rgardler>	you also have it in a yellow hint box when you hover over a link
+Oct 05 04:27:14 <rgardler>	you also have it sung to you by the voice plugin
+Oct 05 04:27:23 <rgardler>	you also have it...
+Oct 05 04:27:42 <rgardler>	In "reader" view, you just don't need to see any of these
+Oct 05 04:28:00 <rgardler>	So, you don't even need to open site.xml anymore
+Oct 05 04:28:07 <ferdinandSoethe>	wait, I think you are talking the other direction of lookup.
+Oct 05 04:28:13 <rgardler>	(unless you want to edit it of course)
+Oct 05 04:28:33 <rgardler>	Ah, yes, I am
+Oct 05 04:28:42 <rgardler>	You mean I have a src and I want to know where it appears
+Oct 05 04:28:50 <rgardler>	Now I understand the problem...
+Oct 05 04:29:10 <rgardler>	The locationmap tells you this though
+Oct 05 04:29:13 <rgardler>	look at...
+Oct 05 04:29:59 <ferdinandSoethe>	right! and that is pretty simple since site.xml and the url of the page in my browser are the same.
+Oct 05 04:30:15 <rgardler>	http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/forrest/trunk/main/webapp/locationmap-transforms.xml
+Oct 05 04:30:30 <rgardler>	and search for pattern="transform.*.*"
+Oct 05 04:31:08 <rgardler>	Now think of Davids "index"
+Oct 05 04:31:36 <rgardler>	it can also show that the file html2document.xsl is used by ....
+Oct 05 04:31:54 <rgardler>	(bad example, I should have picked an XML LM entry, but you get the point I hope)
+Oct 05 04:32:12 <ferdinandSoethe>	OK, in a minute. Just let me finish that thought: I'm thinking that I (Editor) will maintain something like site-author while David is on holiday (David, don't get any ideas!).
+Oct 05 04:33:06 <ferdinandSoethe>	 And now want to move all documents for version 0.8 to a new physical location. So I need a quick way to tell from site where the actual document is located.
+Oct 05 04:33:16 <ferdinandSoethe>	OK, now I read your link.
+Oct 05 04:34:12 <rgardler>	so far so good...
+Oct 05 04:34:43 <rgardler>	(I'm now on baby duty so my responses may be delayed)
+Oct 05 04:35:24 <ferdinandSoethe>	I read that link but I didn't see this change my mind.
+Oct 05 04:36:51 <rgardler>	in your scenario you have changed physical location of the source files?
+Oct 05 04:37:23 <ferdinandSoethe>	I guess the point I'm traing to make is that (ideally) a quick look at any menuitem in site.xml should tell me where the document/data is coming from. Any need to look that up will make maintenance harder.
+Oct 05 04:38:21 <ferdinandSoethe>	yes I assumed that I needed to restructure parts of a site. Otherwise I wouldn't much care about the actual location of files.
+Oct 05 04:39:00 <rgardler>	In 99.9% of cases the user will not change the defaultlocation of a file...
+Oct 05 04:39:16 <rgardler>	so you already know that they are in content/xdocs
+Oct 05 04:39:45 <rgardler>	using lm only gives you the *option* to get them from somewhere else
+Oct 05 04:40:32 <rgardler>	having a document map from site.xml to locationmap (as David suggests) solves the problem if you use that option
+Oct 05 04:40:36 <ferdinandSoethe>	hmmm. you have a point there. 
+Oct 05 04:41:15 <rgardler>	Even more important, this is irrelevant to the whole "do we replace site: and ext: with lm:" discussion because...
+Oct 05 04:41:38 <rgardler>	the problem is still the sam in that
+Oct 05 04:41:50 <rgardler>	site:index gets resolved to index.tml
+Oct 05 04:42:01 <rgardler>	which may be redirected by the lm anyway
+Oct 05 04:42:24 <rgardler>	(although readability is still an impotant issue)
+Oct 05 04:43:52 <ferdinandSoethe>	Wait. The fact that is can alreay happen does not mean that it is w/o problem. But as I said. I see the power and I'm in favour of doing it
+Oct 05 04:44:37 <rgardler>	ok, so we need to solve the readability issue...
+Oct 05 04:44:48 <rgardler>	in my view it is only a problem for non-technical users
+Oct 05 04:44:57 <ferdinandSoethe>	but I'd try to document the resulting uris as close to the site-entry as possible. 
+Oct 05 04:45:38 <ferdinandSoethe>	Well, not really. Even if you consider me a non technical user
+Oct 05 04:46:36 <ferdinandSoethe>	I'd say that even a technical user would take much longer to figure out where a uri is pointing at when he deals with a lm that he hasn't designed.
+Oct 05 04:46:45 <rgardler>	OK, lets consider your annotated site.xml route
+Oct 05 04:47:00 <rgardler>	if we write it back as you suggest...
+Oct 05 04:47:12 <rgardler>	how does the user know if it is up to date?
+Oct 05 04:48:08 <ferdinandSoethe>	write a datestamp with it. It doesn't have to be perfect.
+Oct 05 04:48:45 <ferdinandSoethe>	In my view it could even me an optional command "forrest selfdoc" that you only call when you need it.
+Oct 05 04:49:21 <rgardler>	I don't think a timestamp helps, that means you have to remember when the lm was last edited
+Oct 05 04:49:30 <rgardler>	even worse in a multi-user environemnt
+Oct 05 04:49:42 <rgardler>	the selfdoc is and option
+Oct 05 04:50:04 <rgardler>	I'd be OK for that to happen
+Oct 05 04:51:13 <rgardler>	since it is optional (I don't want my own files being overwritten automatically)
+Oct 05 04:52:53 <ferdinandSoethe>	True. Multiuser enviroments are a concern. But then: the whole concept of site.xml is questionable in a mu-environment.
+Oct 05 04:54:05 <ferdinandSoethe>	Once there is more than one editor we should really move site and tabs into a database with proper locking of individual records (objects)
+Oct 05 04:54:09 <rgardler>	good point - in an multi-user I use Daisy and the navigation structure in there
+Oct 05 04:54:44 <rgardler>	OK, decision made, we need a selfdoc target - care to make an issue?
+Oct 05 04:55:31 <ferdinandSoethe>	and if you do, you can simply add the extra info in a r/o table that is linked to the edited records and shown along with them.
+Oct 05 04:58:30 <ferdinandSoethe>	ok, will do that right away.
+Oct 05 04:59:05 <ferdinandSoethe>	q: how do I get rid of the debug line that jetty is currently throwing at me by the dozent?
+Oct 05 05:00:14 <rgardler>	Thats's Cooon debug info
+Oct 05 05:00:42 <rgardler>	I think we need to change the log level'
+Oct 05 05:00:51 <rgardler>	not loked into it though
+Oct 05 05:03:24 <rgardler>	Ron, are you still about?
+Oct 05 05:09:37 <Ron_>	Yup.
+Oct 05 05:10:17 <Ron_>	What's up, Ross?
+Oct 05 05:11:08 <ferdinandSoethe>	I figured that but didn't figure out where. In forrest-core.xconf that setting is commented out so I figured that would default to minimal logging
+Oct 05 05:11:30 <ferdinandSoethe>	issue is created
+Oct 05 05:12:59 <rgardler>	Ron: nothing up, just wondered if had plans for the profiling plugin
+Oct 05 05:14:14 <Ron_>	Sure.  Here's what I've come up with:
+Oct 05 05:14:27 <Ron_>	- It should be an internal plugin
+Oct 05 05:14:50 <Ron_>	cocoon-profiler-block goes to lib/.
+Oct 05 05:15:43 <Ron_>	- The profiler roles should move to forrest.xconf.
+Oct 05 05:16:29 <ferdinandSoethe>	ok, will sign off for now.
+Oct 05 05:16:41 <rgardler>	see you later ferdinadn
+Oct 05 05:16:52 <Ron_>	I'm still a bit shaky on the internal plugin side
+Oct 05 05:17:16 <rgardler>	Ron, I'm just aboiut to have my tea, I'll be back in 10-15 mins, please outline your plan I'll catch up when I return
+Oct 05 05:17:20 <rgardler>	\away
+Oct 05 05:18:42 <Ron_>	Ross: enjoy your tea
+Oct 05 05:19:42 <Ron_>	... and main/webapp/profiler.xmap will also move to the plugin, along with the stylesheets
+Oct 05 05:20:56 <Ron_>	One problem I haven't completely figured out yet is that the profile result got to be rendered last.
+Oct 05 05:21:32 <Ron_>	A possible solution would be to enable profiling via a command line switch, which would add the page to cocoon.Main.
+Oct 05 05:22:00 <Ron_>	(see main/targets/site.xml)
+Oct 05 05:22:02 <Ron_>	...
+Oct 05 05:22:04 <Ron_>	<arg value="${project.start-uri}"/>
+Oct 05 05:22:36 <Ron_>	<arg value="${cprofile.html}" if="profiling-enabled?"/>
+Oct 05 05:22:37 <Ron_>	...
+Oct 05 05:22:55 <Ron_>	This isn't real Ant syntax, but you should get the idea.
+Oct 05 05:25:58 <Ron_>	That's about it.
+Oct 05 05:27:33 <rgardler>	I'm back... let me see...
+Oct 05 05:27:57 <rgardler>	forrest.xconf should not be touched by a plugin since it makes the plugin
+Oct 05 05:28:20 <Ron_>	Should be forrest-core.xconf
+Oct 05 05:28:22 <Ron_>	?
+Oct 05 05:28:38 <rgardler>	However, I paln to enable plugins to add their own *.xconf
+Oct 05 05:28:45 <rgardler>	(yes forrest-core.xconf)
+Oct 05 05:29:00 <rgardler>	in fact it is already enabled if you use the XPatch functionlaity in Cocoon
+Oct 05 05:29:06 <rgardler>	although this is due to be removed
+Oct 05 05:29:16 <rgardler>	It will be OK, during development
+Oct 05 05:29:20 <Ron_>	There's only one line that has to be moved out.
+Oct 05 05:29:21 <Ron_>	<include src="resource://org/apache/cocoon/components/profiler/profiler.roles"/>
+Oct 05 05:29:53 <rgardler>	Ok, we need an issue to remind us to do it
+Oct 05 05:29:59 <rgardler>	(take it out that is)
+Oct 05 05:30:25 <rgardler>	getting profiler output last...
+Oct 05 05:30:41 <rgardler>	give me a few moments to look at what you refer to (I'm not familiar with it)
+Oct 05 05:33:12 <rgardler>	Hmmm... I'm not sure what you are suggesting here?
+Oct 05 05:33:34 <rgardler>	How does Cocoon know to render that page last?
+Oct 05 05:34:14 <Ron_>	There's only 1 page given as argument, I think it's the linkmap.
+Oct 05 05:34:42 <Ron_>	If we add another, it should get rendered after everything contained in linkmap.
+Oct 05 05:34:50 <Ron_>	At least, that's the theory.
+Oct 05 05:35:03 <rgardler>	Oh, OK, I didn;t realise we could do that with Cocoon.
+Oct 05 05:35:07 <rgardler>	That's easy then :-)
+Oct 05 05:35:14 <Ron_>	I hope so.
+Oct 05 05:35:35 <Ron_>	I'll have to check the Cocoon source to be sure things work like I want them to be.
+Oct 05 05:35:49 <Ron_>	Otherwise we'll have to come up with something else.
+Oct 05 05:36:49 <--	ferdinandSoethe has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
+Oct 05 05:38:12 <rgardler>	My suggestion for "something else" would be to use
+Oct 05 05:38:27 <rgardler>	a webtest script (or AntEater or whatever)
+Oct 05 05:38:42 <rgardler>	One advantage of doing this is that we could create a specific set of profiling tests
+Oct 05 05:38:53 <rgardler>	this would ensure that we have consistent output for comparison
+Oct 05 05:39:04 <rgardler>	However, your approch is much easier and quicker to implement
+Oct 05 05:39:12 <rgardler>	so should be the first version
+Oct 05 05:39:46 <Ron_>	Just to see if I understood you correctly
+Oct 05 05:40:00 <Ron_>	This would mean to start the webapp
+Oct 05 05:40:10 <Ron_>	and run the script against the server?
+Oct 05 05:40:16 <rgardler>	Yes
+Oct 05 05:40:43 <Ron_>	Hmm, I like the idea.
+Oct 05 05:41:19 <rgardler>	I'd be happy to help implement it if you can get the initial plugin together
+Oct 05 05:41:32 <rgardler>	I've been playing with webtest on an interal project recently
+Oct 05 05:41:38 <rgardler>	In fact...
+Oct 05 05:41:54 <rgardler>	I'm hoping this may be a way of improving the tests within Forrest
+Oct 05 05:42:07 <rgardler>	Perhaps your plugin should be a "test" plugin rather than "profile" plugin>?
+Oct 05 05:42:50 <Ron_>	Or "benchmark?"
+Oct 05 05:43:50 <Ron_>	One thing I don't know yet is how to contribute the code.
+Oct 05 05:44:04 <Ron_>	Create an issue and attach patches?
+Oct 05 05:46:45 <rgardler>	benchmark? misses the "test to make sure it works"
+Oct 05 05:46:51 <rgardler>	test misses "benchmarking"
+Oct 05 05:47:02 <rgardler>	We need a name capturing both, but it's only a name
+Oct 05 05:47:12 <rgardler>	Contributing - issue + patch - yes
+Oct 05 05:47:48 <Ron_>	Maybe I am missing the scope of the plugin.
+Oct 05 05:47:57 <Ron_>	What do you have in mind?
+Oct 05 05:49:08 <Ron_>	That is, what is the scope of the "test."
+Oct 05 05:50:22 <Ron_>	(Contributing: ok)
+Oct 05 05:50:55 <rgardler>	Are you familiar with Unit testing?
+Oct 05 05:51:12 <Ron_>	Yes.
+Oct 05 05:51:28 <rgardler>	OK, WebTest is JUnit for webapps
+Oct 05 05:51:36 <rgardler>	It's not ideal for testing Forrest, but...
+Oct 05 05:51:53 <rgardler>	we can at least use it (or something similar) to retrieve a page
+Oct 05 05:52:00 <rgardler>	and check that it contains the right content.
+Oct 05 05:52:19 <rgardler>	Ii.e. div class="foo" exists, title="bar" etc.
+Oct 05 05:52:30 <rgardler>	It can also test pdF geeration
+Oct 05 05:52:59 <rgardler>	If we double this as the scripts for your profiling we "kill two birds with one stone" as we say in Englan
+Oct 05 05:53:00 <Ron_>	Oh, I see.
+Oct 05 05:53:49 <rgardler>	Like I said, I think your first version should do the profiling
+Oct 05 05:53:50 <Ron_>	I thought the profiling plugin should only provide some timings, how fast different pipelines are.
+Oct 05 05:54:38 <rgardler>	I'm just tossing an idea around
+Oct 05 05:54:45 <rgardler>	not necessarily making a recomendation
+Oct 05 05:54:53 <Ron_>	And would you add tests like "/index.html must be rendered within xxx ms?"
+Oct 05 05:54:53 <rgardler>	really I'm wondering...
+Oct 05 05:55:33 <rgardler>	(I was wondering) if having a standard set of files being processed would make the prfiling more accurate
+Oct 05 05:56:11 <rgardler>	(index.html within xxx ms) is also a good idea, for quickly ensuring we are not killing performance with new additions
+Oct 05 05:57:07 <Ron_>	Are we talking about a benchmark site here?
+Oct 05 05:57:34 <rgardler>	I think I may be confusing things by mixing the two issues
+Oct 05 05:58:13 <rgardler>	I wasn't intending it to be a benchmarking site, but it could be used as such
+Oct 05 05:58:54 <Ron_>	David and I have talked about this on the list - the benchmark thingy, that is.
+Oct 05 05:59:22 <rgardler>	OK, I'll find the discussion in the archives - I have to admit I only skimmed those threads
+Oct 05 05:59:42 <rgardler>	however, first I need to batch my son and put him to bed.
+Oct 05 05:59:49 <rgardler>	back in about 30 mins
+Oct 05 06:00:00 <rgardler>	\away being a dad
+Oct 05 06:00:15 <Ron_>	Good.  I'll grab something to eat in the meantime.
+Oct 05 06:00:19 <rgardler>	one day I'll type the right slash for a command
+Oct 05 06:00:29 <Ron_>	;-)
+Oct 05 07:00:09 <Ron_>	I think we are talking about two things, really.
+Oct 05 07:00:29 <Ron_>	(1) "Are we serving the right content?"
+Oct 05 07:01:21 <rgardler>	Yes, that is what I refer to as "tests"
+Oct 05 07:02:48 -->	Ron__ (n=rblasch) has joined #for-oct
+Oct 05 07:03:17 <rgardler>	wow, two rons!
+Oct 05 07:03:39 <Ron__>	Oops, lost my connection for a moment.
+Oct 05 07:05:03 <Ron__>	Strange, I feel tempted to talk to myself now. ;-)
+Oct 05 07:05:22 <rgardler>	OK, I'll dissapper for a while...
+Oct 05 07:05:39 <rgardler>	I'm just reviewing the mail archives re: benchmarking
+Oct 05 07:05:49 <rgardler>	I note that David has made a start on a benchmarking site: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=112523204216082&w=2
+Oct 05 07:06:34 <rgardler>	Although if that is the only commit then there is nothing in there yet (not checked source)
+Oct 05 07:07:12 <Ron__>	There is a template site.
+Oct 05 07:07:59 <rgardler>	Yes, that is what David has done, I realise now.
+Oct 05 07:08:33 <rgardler>	So should the benchmark sites, also be the test sites?
+Oct 05 07:09:03 <Ron__>	I haven't thought about this yet, really.
+Oct 05 07:09:10 <Ron__>	I may well be.
+Oct 05 07:09:21 <rgardler>	How about this...
+Oct 05 07:09:28 <Ron__>	The idea was that the benchmark sites should change rarely.
+Oct 05 07:10:00 <rgardler>	Ah, yes, that is important, whereas test sites
+Oct 05 07:10:09 <rgardler>	whereas test sites will change when features change or
+Oct 05 07:10:12 <rgardler>	when bugs are uncovered
+Oct 05 07:10:45 <Ron__>	Right.
+Oct 05 07:11:07 <rgardler>	I think they should be separate becuase of that
+Oct 05 07:11:17 <rgardler>	that solves the naming issue - benchmark it is
+Oct 05 07:11:39 <rgardler>	Lets leave testing for another day
+Oct 05 07:12:45 <Ron__>	Right, but I like the idea.  Didn't know it was easily possible to do that.
+Oct 05 07:13:25 <rgardler>	http://webtest.cannoo.com
+Oct 05 07:13:36 <Ron__>	Definitely would want to have this for my pod-input plugin.
+Oct 05 07:14:16 <rgardler>	sorry - http://webtest.canoo.com/manual/WebTestHome.html
+Oct 05 07:14:44 <rgardler>	It's not ideal for testing intermediate stages (like XML) but good for the end result
+Oct 05 07:14:54 <rgardler>	If you want it in your pod-input plugin
+Oct 05 07:15:11 <rgardler>	we should work out a centralised testing framework
+Oct 05 07:15:25 <rgardler>	a standard way for plugins to provide tests 
+Oct 05 07:15:43 <rgardler>	currently all we do is require that the docs build
+Oct 05 07:15:54 <rgardler>	see the "test" target in plugins/build.xml
+Oct 05 07:16:23 <Ron__>	Sounds good.
+Oct 05 07:19:24 <Ron__>	So, for the benchmark I'll start with a plugin in "org.apache.forrest.plugin.internal.benchmark,"
+Oct 05 07:19:44 <Ron__>	and submit an issue as soon as things are somewhat running.
+Oct 05 07:20:24 <--	Ron_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
+Oct 05 07:20:36 ---	Ron__ is now known as Ron_
+Oct 05 07:21:13 <rgardler>	sounds great - I'll be on and off IRC for at least another hour or two.
+Oct 05 07:21:19 <rgardler>	holler if you wnat help with anything
+Oct 05 07:22:09 <Ron_>	Cool, thanks.
+Oct 05 07:26:19 <Ron_>	But I guess I won't get too far today, as it is already late in Austria (UTC + 2).
+Oct 05 07:55:22 -->	Ron__ (n=rblasch) has joined #for-oct
+Oct 05 08:03:14 <--	Ron_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
+Oct 05 08:03:40 ---	Ron__ is now known as Ron_
+Oct 05 08:03:55 <Ron_>	Ross, you still there?
+Oct 05 08:13:33 <rgardler>	Yes
+Oct 05 08:14:09 <Ron_>	I've got the basic setup running.
+Oct 05 08:14:23 <rgardler>	Wow - that was pretty damn quick
+Oct 05 08:14:44 <Ron_>	Yup, things went faster than I thought.
+Oct 05 08:14:51 <Ron_>	There's 1 thing missing, though.
+Oct 05 08:15:07 <rgardler>	go ahead...
+Oct 05 08:15:08 <Ron_>	The map:pipe.
+Oct 05 08:15:33 <rgardler>	sorry, not following...
+Oct 05 08:15:38 <Ron_>	I would need to replace the map:pipes of sitemap.xmap.
+Oct 05 08:15:49 <Ron_>	There's set to the non-profiling parts.
+Oct 05 08:15:49 <rgardler>	let me look at that...
+Oct 05 08:16:08 <Ron_>	The profiling page currently only shows cprofile.html.
+Oct 05 08:16:35 <rgardler>	Ahhh.. I see the problem, the map:pipe is defined in sitemap.xmap and therefore cannot
+Oct 05 08:16:37 <Ron_>	It works as soon as I set the map:pipes in sitemap.xmap to the profiling parts.
+Oct 05 08:16:45 <rgardler>	be redefined in the plugins xmap
+Oct 05 08:17:01 <Ron_>	Right.
+Oct 05 08:17:07 <rgardler>	that's a problem
+Oct 05 08:17:14 <rgardler>	let me think....
+Oct 05 08:18:33 <rgardler>	I can't think of any way to get around that
+Oct 05 08:18:40 <rgardler>	I think we'll need to ask the Cocoon community
+Oct 05 08:18:46 <rgardler>	are you subscribed to their dev list?
+Oct 05 08:18:51 <Ron_>	Yup.
+Oct 05 08:19:00 <Ron_>	I'll take care of it.
+Oct 05 08:19:06 <rgardler>	Do you want to ask them, or shall I (it might be better on the user list actuallY)
+Oct 05 08:19:38 <rgardler>	Cool - thanks Ron
+Oct 05 08:20:51 <Ron_>	I'll look into this and keep the forrest dev list posted.
+Oct 05 08:21:53 <Ron_>	I'll leave it there for today.
+Oct 05 08:22:23 <Ron_>	Thanks for your help, Ross.
+Oct 05 08:22:36 <Ron_>	Bye, everyone.
+Oct 05 08:27:18 <--	Ron_ (n=rblasch) has left #for-oct
+Oct 05 08:40:11 <xley>	anyone still around?
+Oct 05 08:44:23 <kronenpj>	I think there are a few.
+Oct 05 08:45:27 <xley>	hi, i am reading back through the log to see what's been happening
+Oct 05 08:49:00 <rgardler>	Wow, Paul you are a dedicated lurker :-)
+Oct 05 08:49:06 <rgardler>	Morning David
+Oct 05 08:49:17 <rgardler>	Loads of fruitful discussion
+Oct 05 08:49:24 <kronenpj>	:)
+Oct 05 08:49:35 <rgardler>	SO Paul, do you have a working Forrest yet?
+Oct 05 08:51:05 <xley>	Paul:  i just found your message to dev sitting in the moderation queue. Deleivered now.
+Oct 05 08:51:14 <xley>	Hi Ross
+Oct 05 08:51:42 <kronenpj>	Thanks.  It's probably something I should know, but I don't.
+Oct 05 08:52:00 <xley>	Paul: you need to move old jxpath.jar completely out of the way, cannot just rename it
+Oct 05 08:52:27 <kronenpj>	Hmm.  Will try.  BRB.
+Oct 05 08:53:09 <kronenpj>	Nothing else needs to change, it just finds it.  Right? 
+Oct 05 08:53:23 <kronenpj>	(Same error)
+Oct 05 08:55:24 <rgardler>	I'm afraid I can't help with that one Paul
+Oct 05 08:55:40 <rgardler>	David has been playing with JXPath, he may help when he's finished reading the logs
+Oct 05 08:56:36 <kronenpj>	I think I found the problem (between chair & keyboard...)
+Oct 05 08:57:39 <rgardler>	:-)) we get alot of those around here (I've broken trunk twice today)
+Oct 05 08:57:51 <kronenpj>	Just in case anyone listening is curious - a .tar.gz file is not the same as a .jar...  Just for reference...
+Oct 05 08:58:07 <rgardler>	:-))
+Oct 05 08:58:45 <kronenpj>	I get a bunch of 'No pipeline matches request' errors but it works...
+Oct 05 08:59:41 <kronenpj>	I know why that happens...
+Oct 05 09:00:04 <rgardler>	There shouldn't be any of those errors (unless you have not done svn up today, I fixed an issue with that this afternoon)
+Oct 05 09:00:45 <kronenpj>	One bunch was because I didn't have the output.pdf plugin requested.
+Oct 05 09:01:02 <kronenpj>	The only ones left are these:
+Oct 05 09:01:04 <kronenpj>	X [0]                                     samples/error:ext:forrest/webapp     BROKEN: No pipeline matched request: samples/error:ext:forrest/webapp
+Oct 05 09:01:25 <rgardler>	OK, that is a known issue with the new JXPath library
+Oct 05 09:01:34 <rgardler>	I guess that is what you meant by "I know why"?
+Oct 05 09:01:59 <kronenpj>	Actually that was more for the PDFs but, I'll take it.. :)
+Oct 05 09:02:10 <rgardler>	-)
+Oct 05 09:02:17 <rgardler>	So you are jumping into views then?
+Oct 05 09:03:36 <kronenpj>	I've sort of been there since Diwaker announced his site about 4 months ago...  
+Oct 05 09:03:55 <rgardler>	OK, you been there since day one then
+Oct 05 09:04:01 <kronenpj>	It's just been broken for a bit and I wanted to see you good folks at work.
+Oct 05 09:04:15 <rgardler>	they've been around for longer but until Diwaker built his site I think only Thorsten understood them
+Oct 05 09:04:44 <rgardler>	These Forrest Tueday things are new
+Oct 05 09:04:52 <rgardler>	we are still working out how to best use the time
+Oct 05 09:04:56 <kronenpj>	I've been following .dev since about the same time.
+Oct 05 09:05:13 <rgardler>	Any suggestions with what you have seen? (both here and onlist)
+Oct 05 09:05:26 <kronenpj>	They are difficult to organize.  I work virtually 3 days/week so I understand some of the difficulties.
+Oct 05 09:05:41 <kronenpj>	Probably having an agenda of things to fix with people lined up to help with their part would be good.
+Oct 05 09:05:53 <kronenpj>	Maybe holding them on a weekend but that can be tough too.
+Oct 05 09:06:48 <rgardler>	agenda + people: I agree this is important, but...
+Oct 05 09:07:02 <rgardler>	being voluntary it's hard to get people to commit time
+Oct 05 09:07:11 <rgardler>	especially on a work day
+Oct 05 09:07:19 <rgardler>	which brings us to weekends...
+Oct 05 09:07:37 <rgardler>	quite a few of the devs resist weekends (or is it just me?)
+Oct 05 09:07:43 <kronenpj>	Getting a good momentum running can help quite a bit too...
+Oct 05 09:07:59 <kronenpj>	Once a sense of accomplishment hits, it's easier to keep going.
+Oct 05 09:08:33 <rgardler>	momentum: I agree
+Oct 05 09:08:39 <rgardler>	this was one of the great things about
+Oct 05 09:08:44 <rgardler>	our test with Gobby
+Oct 05 09:08:54 <rgardler>	we could all *see* something happening
+Oct 05 09:09:03 <rgardler>	in code
+Oct 05 09:09:10 <kronenpj>	I didn't get a chance to try it, but it sounds very interesting.
+Oct 05 09:09:27 <kronenpj>	That'd probably help me get oriented to the code too. 
+Oct 05 09:09:31 <rgardler>	You were here when I was explaining the locationmap to Gav, right?
+Oct 05 09:09:53 <kronenpj>	I've been on during the day, but working.  I've looked back a little.
+Oct 05 09:10:06 <rgardler>	OK, in short...
+Oct 05 09:10:16 <rgardler>	Gav wanted to know what I was doing with the locationmap
+Oct 05 09:10:21 <rgardler>	he didn't know how it worked
+Oct 05 09:10:29 <rgardler>	I was half way through explainng
+Oct 05 09:10:34 <rgardler>	pointing at files in svn
+Oct 05 09:10:39 <rgardler>	cutting snippets to explain them etc.
+Oct 05 09:10:49 <kronenpj>	Yep, got it.
+Oct 05 09:10:55 <rgardler>	and he said "I think I'd get it better if I worked on the code"
+Oct 05 09:11:13 <rgardler>	With Gobby I could have explained it
+Oct 05 09:11:18 <rgardler>	opened the files for him to see
+Oct 05 09:11:27 <rgardler>	changed a file to show him how it worked
+Oct 05 09:11:35 <kronenpj>	Yep, that would have been helpful.
+Oct 05 09:11:39 <rgardler>	run a version of forrest and shown him the results in a browser
+Oct 05 09:12:39 <kronenpj>	Maybe next month...
+Oct 05 09:12:41 <kronenpj>	:)
+Oct 05 09:12:42 <rgardler>	So, what did you have in mind when you said we need to get momemtum going?
+Oct 05 09:13:47 <kronenpj>	Find something that's relatively easy to fix but is "pissing off" a number of people and get it working...  Then try to tackle something a little harder.
+Oct 05 09:14:04 <kronenpj>	(I'm still trying to remember how to format stuff for IRC)
+Oct 05 09:14:27 <kronenpj>	Even solid progress on understanding how Thurston thinks could do it ;)
+Oct 05 09:14:38 <rgardler>	lol
+Oct 05 09:15:02 <rgardler>	Yeah, we need a Gobby that gives us a direct link to his bran patterns
+Oct 05 09:15:03 <kronenpj>	J/K...  Something to give people a sense of accomplishment...
+Oct 05 09:15:07 <rgardler>	too damn smart for me!
+Oct 05 09:15:17 <kronenpj>	:>
+Oct 05 09:15:45 <kronenpj>	xley: My skins site is "compiling" rather nicely now.  Thanks!
+Oct 05 09:15:54 <xley>	good
+Oct 05 09:16:09 <kronenpj>	I'd still like to see cocoon cache things effectively, but that's another day.
+Oct 05 09:17:13 <xley>	BTW the faster i go, the behinder i get. Try to read logs and follow current and read last night email :-)
+Oct 05 09:18:06 <rgardler>	just read the logs - eventually you'll catch up with chatter here - don't forget your coffee though, I'm about to get my whiskey
+Oct 05 09:18:19 <rgardler>	I think Paul makes a valid point about momentum on these Forrest Tuesdays
+Oct 05 09:18:44 <rgardler>	The problem I see is that people come and go throughout the day
+Oct 05 09:18:57 <rgardler>	any ideas how we can get around that?
+Oct 05 09:19:18 <xley>	rgradler: ah, i was worried that you wouldn't be around for much longer 
+Oct 05 09:19:37 <kronenpj>	More interaction (Gobby-style) could help.
+Oct 05 09:19:48 <xley>	come and go is good too
+Oct 05 09:20:09 <kronenpj>	Sure, if that's what lets people participate. 
+Oct 05 09:20:16 <kronenpj>	But you need to capture their attention while they are here.
+Oct 05 09:21:06 <kronenpj>	(Sweet - Gentoo includes a build for Gobby!)
+Oct 05 09:21:27 <kronenpj>	If folks wander in and don't see anything really going on, they'll leave more quickly.
+Oct 05 09:22:04 <xley>	they need to learn to wait, 
+Oct 05 09:22:06 <rgardler>	I agree, but
+Oct 05 09:22:15 <rgardler>	let me start again...
+Oct 05 09:22:27 <kronenpj>	If there's no activity for 15 minutes, they'll likely go do something else.
+Oct 05 09:22:31 <rgardler>	I agree that we need people to participate
+Oct 05 09:22:42 <rgardler>	but at the same time one of the goals is to attract new people
+Oct 05 09:22:53 *	kronenpj waves.
+Oct 05 09:22:55 <rgardler>	provide some "entry level" help with forrest
+Oct 05 09:23:17 <rgardler>	I was really pleased that Gav wanted to know about the Locationmap stuff
+Oct 05 09:23:25 <rgardler>	and that Paul is also lurking
+Oct 05 09:23:38 <rgardler>	If we had a more limited scope would we be in danger of killing that?
+Oct 05 09:24:07 <rgardler>	(Paul *was* lurking that is)
+Oct 05 09:24:23 <kronenpj>	True, but if you have a purpose and are active in pursuing it, I think you'll keep the people you attract.
+Oct 05 09:24:34 <kronenpj>	So, if this is a dev activity, gauge the activity for devs.
+Oct 05 09:24:45 <kronenpj>	If you feel a user activity is needed, start another one.
+Oct 05 09:25:08 <kronenpj>	You'll have a tougher time keeping users in a dev channel and vice-versa.
+Oct 05 09:25:23 <kronenpj>	Unless users have a keen interest in becoming devs...
+Oct 05 09:25:24 <rgardler>	yeah, it is a dev activity (at least *I* think it is)
+Oct 05 09:25:43 <rgardler>	How about we do something like 
+Oct 05 09:25:46 <kronenpj>	And with the things *I* understood you wanted to accomplish, I agree.
+Oct 05 09:26:05 <rgardler>	have a theme for each FT that we will work on through the day
+Oct 05 09:26:18 <rgardler>	but encourage potential and existing devs to come
+Oct 05 09:26:30 <rgardler>	with specific issues they wish to address
+Oct 05 09:26:42 <rgardler>	when they raise them we break off from the main task
+Oct 05 09:26:43 *	xley almost up to speed with current topic
+Oct 05 09:26:55 <kronenpj>	That works, or devote a Tuesday to answering user questions...
+Oct 05 09:27:13 <rgardler>	OK.
+Oct 05 09:27:25 <rgardler>	This is only the third time I have used IRC
+Oct 05 09:27:33 <rgardler>	It is great for Talk - but rubbish for doing
+Oct 05 09:27:41 <rgardler>	enter Gobby...
+Oct 05 09:27:51 <kronenpj>	Right.
+Oct 05 09:28:17 <rgardler>	Lets see what David thinks when he catches us, since he s nearby
+Oct 05 09:28:31 <kronenpj>	Ok.  A slight tangent, if I might.
+Oct 05 09:28:37 <rgardler>	go ahead
+Oct 05 09:28:47 <kronenpj>	If someone comes up with a question that doesn't quite
+Oct 05 09:28:55 <kronenpj>	fit the theme, but someone is willing to answer it.  Heave
+Oct 05 09:29:08 <xley>	Damn, Jenny's automated log broken
+Oct 05 09:29:12 <kronenpj>	Have the two or however many go off onto another IRC channel.
+Oct 05 09:29:14 <xley>	http://casa.che-che.com/~bot/forrest/forrest.log.05Oct2005
+Oct 05 09:29:18 <xley>	empty
+Oct 05 09:29:20 <kronenpj>	Then come back when they're done.
+Oct 05 09:29:41 <xley>	the live log is so important
+Oct 05 09:29:50 <rgardler>	jenyy dead :-((
+Oct 05 09:29:53 <kronenpj>	Oops..
+Oct 05 09:29:56 <rgardler>	We need two machines running in future
+Oct 05 09:30:33 <rgardler>	"Split to separate channel" -> I'm OK with this but...
+Oct 05 09:30:40 <xley>	It happened before to, the rollover after midnight in Spain
+Oct 05 09:30:50 <rgardler>	it is critical that all communications are logged
+Oct 05 09:30:56 <xley>	JennyCurran is still here
+Oct 05 09:31:06 <xley>	i have local local
+Oct 05 09:31:07 <kronenpj>	Agreed, so there should be a process for doing it.
+Oct 05 09:31:10 <xley>	log log
+Oct 05 09:31:23 <rgardler>	:-)
+Oct 05 09:31:38 <rgardler>	I have *one* whisky, maybe I should have a whiskey whiskey
+Oct 05 09:31:41 <xley>	will upload, but manual is wasted effort
+Oct 05 09:32:01 <xley>	if that keeps you going, yes yes
+Oct 05 09:32:34 <rgardler>	Paul: I think Gobby may help here s well
+Oct 05 09:32:45 <rgardler>	There is an IRC like chat mechanism
+Oct 05 09:33:09 <rgardler>	that could be used for the prelim chat "can someone help me with XYZ" typw things
+Oct 05 09:33:16 <kronenpj>	Sure.
+Oct 05 09:33:22 <rgardler>	but when something needs to be done a new file
+Oct 05 09:33:24 <rgardler>	could be created
+Oct 05 09:33:30 <xley>	it would be brilliant if that was actual IRC, so gobby piggybacked
+Oct 05 09:34:13 <rgardler>	oin the new file we write a document about what to do and why
+Oct 05 09:34:16 <kronenpj>	Agreed, but it *sounds* like it's not...
+Oct 05 09:34:21 <rgardler>	self documenting "discussion"
+Oct 05 09:34:37 <rgardler>	Gobby piggy-back: it is not. but it is only version 0.2.2
+Oct 05 09:34:54 <rgardler>	unfortunately it is GPL and uses lots of tech I am not familiar with
+Oct 05 09:35:03 <xley>	if we have a focussed discussion, with people waiting to give each other a chance, the irc can be very useful, even to solve an issue
+Oct 05 09:35:44 <rgardler>	Well, the chat in Gobby is the same as IRC except
+Oct 05 09:35:49 <rgardler>	it is not over IRC channels
+Oct 05 09:35:56 <rgardler>	I mean it looks the same and behaves the same
+Oct 05 09:36:42 <xley>	this morning i explained to Thorsten the JXPath bug. I could correct his misconceptions on the spot.
+Oct 05 09:36:59 *	kronenpj needs to run for dinner...
+Oct 05 09:37:17 <rgardler>	Paul, thanks for your input - really helpful - enjoy dinner
+Oct 05 09:37:18 <kronenpj>	Ross - It's likely you'll be asleep before I return..
+Oct 05 09:37:33 <kronenpj>	I can continue with you on the dev list if you'd like...
+Oct 05 09:37:42 <rgardler>	Yes, I think that would be good
+Oct 05 09:38:11 <xley>	please do participate as much as you can manage Paul
+Oct 05 09:38:35 <rgardler>	David, I agree IRC style chat *is* useful
+Oct 05 09:38:37 <rgardler>	However
+Oct 05 09:39:00 <rgardler>	the only advantage of IRC over Gobby is most people have at least heard of it
+Oct 05 09:39:16 <rgardler>	and there are many clients
+Oct 05 09:39:41 <rgardler>	What Gobby gives is the ability to share files, illustrate what you are talking about and
+Oct 05 09:39:53 <rgardler>	actually *do* stuff at the same time achatting
+Oct 05 09:40:12 <xley>	i was looking for a way to enable those who can't run gobby a way to participate (for short term solution)
+Oct 05 09:40:33 <rgardler>	Yes - that is the *real* problem with it
+Oct 05 09:40:34 <xley>	i like the sound of gobby-like tools 
+Oct 05 09:40:44 <rgardler>	and until we solve that it is *not* an option
+Oct 05 09:41:18 <rgardler>	You know I wish I had the time to write one in Java and put it out under the apache license
+Oct 05 09:42:17 <xley>	amazes me that there isn't yet
+Oct 05 09:42:36 <rgardler>	yeah, me too
+Oct 05 09:42:42 <rgardler>	I'm jut looking at Jabber
+Oct 05 09:42:48 <rgardler>	should be one using thier open protocols
+Oct 05 09:43:04 <xley>	that had occurred to me too
+Oct 05 09:43:05 <rgardler>	(I wish GSoC were happening now I know the project I'd want)
+Oct 05 09:44:03 <xley>	(the inkboard addition to Inkscape was a GSoC project, did you know)
+Oct 05 09:45:16 <rgardler>	I din't know that - GSoc projects did so many cool things
+Oct 05 09:45:52 <xley>	see the press release at http://www.openclipart.org/
+Oct 05 09:46:42 <rgardler>	OK, while I read that you might want to read http://wiki.inkscape.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Inkboard2.0
+Oct 05 09:48:48 <xley>	thanks for the ref, they have a way to go then.
+Oct 05 09:49:02 <rgardler>	unfortunately, yes
+Oct 05 09:49:28 <xley>	note the opensource lesson though ...
+Oct 05 09:50:09 <xley>	He says: "I inherited this codebase, and although I have the design documents, I don't have the original designers and coders to talk to. "
+Oct 05 09:51:17 <xley>	at least he has design documents
+Oct 05 09:51:39 <rgardler>	yeah, and they'll look *exactly* like the code!
+Oct 05 09:51:39 <xley>	we have some pretty good doco at forrest
+Oct 05 09:52:12 <rgardler>	Only for some parts
+Oct 05 09:52:22 <rgardler>	I'm amazed at the number of things I'm finding in the sitemap
+Oct 05 09:52:27 <rgardler>	that I have no idea what they do
+Oct 05 09:52:32 <xley>	e.g. Jeff's linking docs
+Oct 05 09:52:38 <xley>	but we don't have Jeff
+Oct 05 09:53:22 <rgardler>	Unfortunately, many of our docs are out of date
+Oct 05 09:53:24 <xley>	svn log helps a little bit
+Oct 05 09:53:56 <xley>	but shows that we need to be better commit descriptions
+Oct 05 09:54:28 <rgardler>	I really like the "auto documenting" of Jira
+Oct 05 09:54:30 <xley>	as usual we need for people to constantly fine-tune the docs
+Oct 05 09:54:40 <rgardler>	Just put the Jira Issue number in the commit message
+Oct 05 09:54:43 <rgardler>	and hey presto
+Oct 05 09:54:52 <rgardler>	doens't help with the docs
+Oct 05 09:54:59 <rgardler>	but helps decipher what is going on
+Oct 05 09:55:00 <xley>	yes ... brilliant
+Oct 05 09:55:12 <xley>	we must be more diligent as committers
+Oct 05 09:55:27 <rgardler>	yes.
+Oct 05 09:55:45 <xley>	we should have an svn template
+Oct 05 09:56:04 <xley>	...
+Oct 05 09:56:32 <rgardler>	would people use it? I always type svn ci foo -m "bar"
+Oct 05 09:56:35 <rgardler>	and what about GUI's
+Oct 05 09:56:57 <xley>	yes that is problem
+Oct 05 09:57:29 <xley>	i always go 'svn commit' and rely on my editor for message
+Oct 05 09:57:41 <xley>	that also gives a chance
+Oct 05 09:57:58 <xley>	to abort the commit and edit the message
+Oct 05 09:58:13 <xley>	i wish people would not use GUIs
+Oct 05 09:58:42 <rgardler>	Yes, too many spelling errorin my commits because of -m "brr"
+Oct 05 09:58:56 <rgardler>	as for GUI's they are here to stay :-(
+Oct 05 09:59:06 <xley>	grrr
+Oct 05 10:00:20 <rgardler>	so...
+Oct 05 10:00:34 <xley>	anyway back to those sitemaps
+Oct 05 10:00:52 <xley>	sorry, interrupted you
+Oct 05 10:01:01 <rgardler>	go ahead (I was going to site: and ext:)
+Oct 05 10:01:24 <xley>	i have yet read today's IRC log about site: etc.
+Oct 05 10:02:03 <rgardler>	(back to those sitemaps...)?
+Oct 05 10:03:05 <xley>	you said that parts confuse you, anything that i can help with ...
+Oct 05 10:03:13 <xley>	or just a general comment.
+Oct 05 10:03:23 <rgardler>	No just a general comment
+Oct 05 10:03:32 <xley>	thought so
+Oct 05 10:03:33 <rgardler>	it's not that the pipelines confuse me
+Oct 05 10:03:35 <xley>	...
+Oct 05 10:03:43 <rgardler>	just that I didn't know they were there
+Oct 05 10:03:49 <rgardler>	or even if they are used
+Oct 05 10:04:08 <xley>	shows that we need to sprinkle some comments in our code.
+Oct 05 10:04:34 <rgardler>	yes, I'm hoping Ferinand will find the time to make his recomendations (an onlist discussion)
+Oct 05 10:04:41 <xley>	yes our sitemaps have grown and grown
+Oct 05 10:05:08 <rgardler>	I'm working on the resources.xmap right now
+Oct 05 10:05:11 <rgardler>	boy is it complex
+Oct 05 10:05:17 <rgardler>	and it does nothing!
+Oct 05 10:05:26 <rgardler>	(apart from read a few files)
+Oct 05 10:05:37 <rgardler>	with lm it is going to shrink loads
+Oct 05 10:08:10 <xley>	good work, thanks. On another topic ...
+Oct 05 10:08:23 <xley>	Paul mentioned earlier about IRC techniques ...
+Oct 05 10:08:55 <xley>	people tend to go away when there is a quiet spot
+Oct 05 10:09:24 <rgardler>	yep
+Oct 05 10:09:36 <xley>	that might be so for general IRC constant sessions
+Oct 05 10:09:48 <xley>	but for a day like today
+Oct 05 10:10:09 <xley>	it should not happen
+Oct 05 10:10:18 <xley>	...
+Oct 05 10:10:38 <rgardler>	does ... mean you are finished talking?
+Oct 05 10:10:47 <xley>	i for one just get on with something related to the day
+Oct 05 10:11:06 <rgardler>	(no it doesn't ;-)
+Oct 05 10:11:08 <xley>	(drat sorry means im still talking)
+Oct 05 10:11:17 <rgardler>	carry on
+Oct 05 10:11:22 <xley>	:-)
+Oct 05 10:11:36 <xley>	i for one just get on with something related to the day ...
+Oct 05 10:12:23 <xley>	when the IRC window beeps, then check back.
+Oct 05 10:12:48 <xley>	...
+Oct 05 10:13:24 <xley>	we need less talk and more doing.
+Oct 05 10:13:34 <xley>	(over)
+Oct 05 10:13:40 <rgardler>	:-)
+Oct 05 10:14:02 <rgardler>	Yeah, I've been working on the LM all day
+Oct 05 10:14:08 <rgardler>	but I have also been talking an awful lot
+Oct 05 10:14:12 <rgardler>	(suprise!)
+Oct 05 10:14:15 <xley>	great
+Oct 05 10:14:34 <rgardler>	To be honest, I have found this FT far better than the first and our interim one
+Oct 05 10:14:41 <rgardler>	Why? because...
+Oct 05 10:14:56 <rgardler>	Gav and Paul were here
+Oct 05 10:15:01 <rgardler>	(new folk)
+Oct 05 10:15:22 <rgardler>	Ferdinand came with a valuabule question about the sitemaps and what to do
+Oct 05 10:15:28 <rgardler>	(see something happening)
+Oct 05 10:15:55 <rgardler>	I've gathered lots of peoples views on site: and ext:
+Oct 05 10:16:03 <rgardler>	(probably could have been done onlist though)
+Oct 05 10:16:12 <rgardler>	but...
+Oct 05 10:16:27 <rgardler>	I've got almost nothing *done* on the locationmap stuff
+Oct 05 10:16:46 <rgardler>	What w need is 
+Oct 05 10:16:56 <rgardler>	a task that can be broken into a number of small parts
+Oct 05 10:17:05 <rgardler>	the LM stuff is ideal (each xmap is separate)
+Oct 05 10:17:25 <rgardler>	Gavin and I started on that, but he is on the wrong timeframe for me
+Oct 05 10:17:33 <rgardler>	(and not as addicated as I am)
+Oct 05 10:17:38 <rgardler>	(over)
+Oct 05 10:18:09 <xley>	(that is why i didn't want to deal with "site:" removal today)
+Oct 05 10:19:21 <xley>	i reckon we need to come to these days with a specific goal, ...
+Oct 05 10:19:45 <xley>	and generally do the rest on the list ...
+Oct 05 10:20:15 <xley>	Sounds like Gobby-like tools would help keep that focus.
+Oct 05 10:21:23 <rgardler>	Yes, although...
+Oct 05 10:21:36 <rgardler>	there is a danger with a "specific goal" that
+Oct 05 10:21:47 <rgardler>	we get into a mess like the XHTML2 stuff
+Oct 05 10:21:57 <rgardler>	I was really pissed off about that...
+Oct 05 10:22:02 <rgardler>	not *at* anyone...
+Oct 05 10:22:15 <rgardler>	but that the approach was considered incorrect...
+Oct 05 10:22:37 <rgardler>	Thorsten was nto there so...
+Oct 05 10:22:46 <rgardler>	his vision could not be included...
+Oct 05 10:23:02 <rgardler>	if we have a specific goal I think it needs to be either
+Oct 05 10:23:09 <rgardler>	1) very clearly mapped out (is that possible)
+Oct 05 10:23:24 <rgardler>	2) someone is there to "drive" the objective forward and ensure that
+Oct 05 10:23:35 <rgardler>	when people arrive they understand the overall vision
+Oct 05 10:24:46 <xley>	team should keep it on track. Newcomers need to read the backlog
+Oct 05 10:25:05 <xley>	no never can clearly map beforehand
+Oct 05 10:25:43 <xley>	(over)
+Oct 05 10:26:25 <rgardler>	team keep on track requires there to be a clear vision in the first place doesn't it?
+Oct 05 10:28:20 <xley>	yes, but let it begin and then evolve. I dunno Ross, what will work.
+Oct 05 10:29:17 <rgardler>	There was an interesting mail in the Cocoon dev list today.. let me find a reference...
+Oct 05 10:31:19 <rgardler>	"And we have stopped waisting time and energy in the "my way or no way" ego battles that stopped so much development initiatives before. from...
+Oct 05 10:31:26 <rgardler>	http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=112841737012179&w=2
+Oct 05 10:31:49 <rgardler>	I wonder if we are suffering the same problem (and it could be my ego so people reading the logs shuld not get paranoid)
+Oct 05 10:32:57 <xley>	interesting that was the last post that i read yesterday. 
+Oct 05 10:34:00 <xley>	(each morning, like now, i have a deluge of eurpean mail to catch up on.)
+Oct 05 10:38:18 <rgardler>	do you think it could be relevant to us as a project? (go on stick your neck out, I like others with big egos have thick skins)
+Oct 05 10:39:16 <xley>	ego probably traps everyone, even if we think that we are beyond it.
+Oct 05 10:40:06 <rgardler>	you are such a diplomat :-)
+Oct 05 10:40:13 <xley>	opensource projects really put this in our face
+Oct 05 10:41:08 <xley>	yes i think our project suffers too, not as bad as some.
+Oct 05 10:42:08 <rgardler>	we are only a small community - time for more yet ;-)
+Oct 05 10:42:56 <rgardler>	OK, so, concluding the Forrest Tuesday discussion...
+Oct 05 10:43:05 <rgardler>	I think they have worked well, but
+Oct 05 10:43:14 <rgardler>	agree that we have not got much done...
+Oct 05 10:43:29 <rgardler>	For the next one we need to start planning at least a week in advance
+Oct 05 10:43:47 <rgardler>	If I had suggested a release a week ago
+Oct 05 10:43:58 <rgardler>	we could have made the LM the focus of this one
+Oct 05 10:44:09 <rgardler>	is that about what you are saying?
+Oct 05 10:45:25 <xley>	yes that is sufficient to give some focus ...
+Oct 05 10:45:42 <kronenpj>	\unaway
+Oct 05 10:46:04 <xley>	not that we i opened this IRC channel i didn't know what to set as the Topic
+Oct 05 10:48:04 <rgardler>	(Hi Paul)
+Oct 05 10:48:25 <rgardler>	Yeah, I think with us having the "interim" IRC meeting we forgot (I know I did)
+Oct 05 10:48:26 <xley>	A related topic from earlier ...
+Oct 05 10:48:53 <xley>	about when to hold these gethogethers ...
+Oct 05 10:49:11 <xley>	>>rgardler: quite a few of the devs resist weekends (or is it just me?)
+Oct 05 10:49:37 <xley>	I, for one, am usually fine with anytime, no aversion to weekends.
+Oct 05 10:50:38 <rgardler>	Why don't we have it weekends, I don't remember (but do know I prefer not to, so am worried it might be jsut me)
+Oct 05 10:51:16 <xley>	what about Friday so that is overlaps with the weekend
+Oct 05 10:51:59 <xley>	you ask why ...
+Oct 05 10:52:18 *	kronenpj didn't.
+Oct 05 10:52:54 <xley>	IIRC it was because Ross had a "slight preference for Tuesdays".
+Oct 05 10:53:13 <rgardler>	OK, well that is *not* good
+Oct 05 10:53:32 <rgardler>	I certainly have a preference for a weekday, and Tuesday is good for me
+Oct 05 10:53:51 <rgardler>	however, if weekend is better for most, my "preference" is not important
+Oct 05 10:54:33 <xley>	Both work for me, but probably because self-employed and work from home.
+Oct 05 10:55:08 <rgardler>	yeah, that is my concern too, we are in the minority
+Oct 05 10:55:20 <kronenpj>	Perhaps some sort of a vote or poll on the dev list?
+Oct 05 10:55:32 <rgardler>	weekends are OK, but I will much spend less time here
+Oct 05 10:55:38 <rgardler>	that is not necessarily a bad thing
+Oct 05 10:55:47 <xley>	Remember the trouble we had trying ...
+Oct 05 10:55:49 <rgardler>	Paul is right, lets review this onlist
+Oct 05 10:56:19 <kronenpj>	If a few (~3) options are polled a decision might be more forthcoming.
+Oct 05 10:56:38 <xley>	to get people to decide a time for the XHTML2 IRC was difficult.
+Oct 05 10:57:15 <kronenpj>	And it always will be...  
+Oct 05 10:57:31 <kronenpj>	I think you're looking for a good number of people who can make it.
+Oct 05 10:57:48 <kronenpj>	There also may be critical people, depending on the objectives.
+Oct 05 10:58:07 <kronenpj>	In that case, it'd be somewhat important for them to be there...
+Oct 05 10:58:26 <kronenpj>	(over)
+Oct 05 10:58:55 <kronenpj>	Oh, sometimes changing it can attract a different set of people
+Oct 05 10:59:02 <kronenpj>	than you might get if it's *always* on day X.
+Oct 05 10:59:06 <kronenpj>	(over) ((again))
+Oct 05 10:59:09 <xley>	The session day is known well in advance, so that people can plan for it.
+Oct 05 10:59:57 <rgardler>	"critical" people - there shouldn't be any, we are a team, but...
+Oct 05 11:00:06 <rgardler>	if someone has a vested interest in the objective, then
+Oct 05 11:00:15 <rgardler>	they will make themsleves available (I know I would)
+Oct 05 11:00:21 <kronenpj>	There are people who are more familiar with, say views, than others are there not?
+Oct 05 11:00:27 <rgardler>	"plan for it" I agree
+Oct 05 11:00:59 <rgardler>	"poll dev list" - we do alright on Tuesdays, but some people who would probably like to participate can't due to work
+Oct 05 11:00:59 <xley>	yes, this is a topic that we should be able to do on list.
+Oct 05 11:01:30 <xley>	then they can do it after work, that is why it is a whole day.
+Oct 05 11:01:36 <rgardler>	perhaps we should say on list  "1) stay Tuesdays, 2) switch to Friday/saturday overlap"
+Oct 05 11:02:18 <kronenpj>	See what responses you get & go from there...
+Oct 05 11:02:46 <xley>	yep, lets try that, but not as a Vote.
+Oct 05 11:02:55 <rgardler>	+1
+Oct 05 11:03:04 <xley>	:-)
+Oct 05 11:03:08 <kronenpj>	+0.01 (non voting member)
+Oct 05 11:03:28 <rgardler>	OK, I'm testing the resources.xmap conversion to lm:
+Oct 05 11:03:38 <rgardler>	it's a little broken right now
+Oct 05 11:03:49 <rgardler>	I'm going to get it working then ask you both to test because it is
+Oct 05 11:03:54 <rgardler>	a very big set of changes
+Oct 05 11:03:56 <rgardler>	ok?
+Oct 05 11:03:56 <xley>	Paul: you mean +1
+Oct 05 11:04:24 <xley>	good, something we can collaborate on. Go.
+Oct 05 11:05:33 <kronenpj>	I'm currently trying to figure out how to work locationmap
+Oct 05 11:05:42 <kronenpj>	so let me know when to update & I can see what happens.
+Oct 05 11:06:07 <kronenpj>	(http://cfas-new.kronenpj.dyndns.org if you're interested)

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