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From cross...@apache.org
Subject svn commit: r293577 - /forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20051004-log.txt
Date Tue, 04 Oct 2005 09:36:35 GMT
Author: crossley
Date: Tue Oct  4 02:36:30 2005
New Revision: 293577

URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs?rev=293577&view=rev
Log:
Log from start until 09:30 GMT.

Added:
    forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20051004-log.txt   (with props)

Added: forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20051004-log.txt
URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs/forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20051004-log.txt?rev=293577&view=auto
==============================================================================
--- forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20051004-log.txt (added)
+++ forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20051004-log.txt Tue Oct  4 02:36:30 2005
@@ -0,0 +1,258 @@
+Sorry, local time in this log (GMT +10)
+
+**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Oct  4 16:36:34 2005
+
+Oct 04 16:36:34 -->	You are now talking on #for-oct
+Oct 04 16:36:34 ---	zelazny.freenode.net sets mode +n #for-oct
+Oct 04 16:36:34 ---	zelazny.freenode.net sets mode +s #for-oct
+Oct 04 16:36:34 ---	#for-oct :[freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is
how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
+Oct 04 16:38:00 ---	xley2 has changed the topic to: ForrestTuesday: cleanup Jira
+Oct 04 16:49:22 -->	crossley has joined #for-oct
+Oct 04 17:32:35 -->	rgardler has joined #for-oct
+Oct 04 17:32:58 <rgardler>	Morning/Evening David
+Oct 04 17:33:36 <crossley>	Evening/Morning Ross
+Oct 04 17:33:54 -->	tscherler has joined #for-oct
+Oct 04 17:34:20 ---	tscherler is now known as tscherler_just_l
+Oct 04 17:35:27 <rgardler>	Hey Thorsten, good to see you, i was just asking a question
on list
+Oct 04 17:36:09 <tscherler_just_l>	yeah hi all
+Oct 04 17:36:30 <tscherler_just_l>	I too much a junky to this damm proect ;-)
+Oct 04 17:36:39 <rgardler>	:-)
+Oct 04 17:36:50 <rgardler>	Lets try and make it a more welcoming place for you then
+Oct 04 17:37:02 <rgardler>	(no need to coment 
+Oct 04 17:37:10 <rgardler>	just acknowledging how you feel right now)
+Oct 04 17:37:19 <rgardler>	My question...
+Oct 04 17:37:24 <tscherler_just_l>	I just need to learn when to shut up and think my
part
+Oct 04 17:37:38 <rgardler>	(that makes two of us)
+Oct 04 17:37:49 <rgardler>	About views status... (re davids mail)
+Oct 04 17:37:51 <crossley>	that is hard to know in real life too, eh.
+Oct 04 17:38:08 <rgardler>	Hi david, I thought you were asleep
+Oct 04 17:38:20 <crossley>	me alseep, no
+Oct 04 17:38:23 ---	tscherler_just_l is now known as tscherler
+Oct 04 17:38:33 <tscherler>	hi david
+Oct 04 17:38:33 <crossley>	only 4:30 pm here anyway.
+Oct 04 17:38:46 <crossley>	gidday thorsten glad you could be here
+Oct 04 17:39:28 <tscherler>	hi david
+Oct 04 17:39:45 <tscherler>	like written above I am an addict to FOR
+Oct 04 17:39:53 <crossley>	good
+Oct 04 17:40:19 <rgardler>	Guys, I'm only here for another 20 minues
+Oct 04 17:40:30 <rgardler>	Will be back later, around mid day BST
+Oct 04 17:40:34 *	tscherler writting an answer to Miroslav Mocek
+Oct 04 17:40:58 <rgardler>	My question for Thorsten (when he comes back)
+Oct 04 17:41:04 <tscherler>	me here
+Oct 04 17:41:07 <rgardler>	regarding status of views
+Oct 04 17:41:23 <rgardler>	what is the plan, how do we help?
+Oct 04 17:41:38 <tscherler>	jxpath in short
+Oct 04 17:41:45 <crossley>	was my summary on list correct
+Oct 04 17:41:46 <tscherler>	but that is not easy
+Oct 04 17:42:16 <tscherler>	david wrote Documentation will need to be changed.
+Oct 04 17:42:35 <tscherler>	for the new plugins yes
+Oct 04 17:42:49 <tscherler>	since you 
+Oct 04 17:43:08 <tscherler>	will need to request all data through the view
+Oct 04 17:43:19 <tscherler>	there is no standard data model anymore
+Oct 04 17:43:46 <tscherler>	rgardler I would love to see an example how you use contracts
in an early state
+Oct 04 17:43:58 <rgardler>	Yeah, I was thinking about that
+Oct 04 17:44:11 <rgardler>	What we hae done with the Resume plugin
+Oct 04 17:44:21 <rgardler>	is basicaly put an alternative path through the sitemap
+Oct 04 17:44:29 <tscherler>	if you want to help give me an example and I can think
about it
+Oct 04 17:44:32 <rgardler>	This is no good for core as it 
+Oct 04 17:44:43 <rgardler>	will make maintenance a nightmare
+Oct 04 17:44:48 <rgardler>	As I've been working through the LM stuff
+Oct 04 17:44:55 <rgardler>	I've realised our sitemaps are crappy
+Oct 04 17:45:01 <rgardler>	loads of repitition
+Oct 04 17:45:02 <tscherler>	jeje
+Oct 04 17:45:09 <rgardler>	The LM is helping alot
+Oct 04 17:45:10 <tscherler>	then we are 2
+Oct 04 17:45:14 <rgardler>	but not enough
+Oct 04 17:45:24 <tscherler>	I noticed that when starting with views
+Oct 04 17:45:29 <rgardler>	I've been thinking of starting an
+Oct 04 17:45:37 <rgardler>	experimental branch in which I will
+Oct 04 17:45:43 <rgardler>	start building a new pipeline
+Oct 04 17:45:47 <rgardler>	using your contracts
+Oct 04 17:45:59 <tscherler>	ross
+Oct 04 17:46:04 <rgardler>	In this I'll do the contracts first thing
+Oct 04 17:46:22 <tscherler>	> >>0.9   - core as a plugin framework (all input/output
code to plugins)
+Oct 04 17:46:22 <crossley>	the sitemaps have grown and grown. We already knew that
they have become cumbersome.
+Oct 04 17:46:43 <tscherler>	IMO we should not use branching
+Oct 04 17:47:01 <tscherler>	better build everything in plugings
+Oct 04 17:47:16 <rgardler>	> >>0.9 - core as a plugin framework (all input/output
code to plugins) -> yes
+Oct 04 17:47:28 <tscherler>	they can have dependency under each other 
+Oct 04 17:47:28 <rgardler>	I could use the XHTML2 plugin instead (remove structurer.xmap)
+Oct 04 17:47:53 <rgardler>	My concern though...
+Oct 04 17:48:05 <rgardler>	If I do this and your work on views diverges too far
+Oct 04 17:48:13 <rgardler>	(or I diverge too far)
+Oct 04 17:48:19 <rgardler>	one of us will be wasting effort
+Oct 04 17:48:22 <rgardler>	thoughts?
+Oct 04 17:48:43 <tscherler>	we need to bring them together
+Oct 04 17:49:14 <tscherler>	still thinking how but they have to grow together
+Oct 04 17:49:45 <tscherler>	the problem with the new version of views is that they
are not doing the linkrewritting
+Oct 04 17:50:04 <rgardler>	is that ite: and ext: only?
+Oct 04 17:50:12 <tscherler>	yeah
+Oct 04 17:50:17 <rgardler>	or does it include ;m:?
+Oct 04 17:50:24 <tscherler>	lm you mean
+Oct 04 17:50:24 <rgardler>	sortty site: and lm:
+Oct 04 17:50:35 <tscherler>	lm should work
+Oct 04 17:50:41 <tscherler>	I have not tried it
+Oct 04 17:50:54 <tscherler>	but hinking about it
+Oct 04 17:51:10 <tscherler>	have to try it
+Oct 04 17:51:12 <crossley>	so why aren't we focussing on the bug with Cocoon use of
JXPath/Linkrewriter
+Oct 04 17:51:29 <tscherler>	+1 for me
+Oct 04 17:51:35 <rgardler>	crossley	so why aren't we focussing on the bug with Cocoon
use of JXPath/Linkrewriter
+Oct 04 17:51:55 <rgardler>	let me be radical for a moment...
+Oct 04 17:52:01 <tscherler>	the problem is quite heavy cocoon/jx stuff not trivial
+Oct 04 17:52:02 <rgardler>	Do we need site: and ext:?
+Oct 04 17:52:14 <rgardler>	lm: gives us the same but is not dependant on site.xml
+Oct 04 17:52:26 <rgardler>	we no longer ave to restrict the elements in site.xml
+Oct 04 17:52:36 <rgardler>	and we can thus create a DTD for site.xml
+Oct 04 17:52:57 <tscherler>	really radical but worth a second thought
+Oct 04 17:53:30 <crossley>	Are you sure that LM gives you the same functionality as
Linkrewriter
+Oct 04 17:53:39 <rgardler>	Yes: see...
+Oct 04 17:54:09 <rgardler>	http://forrest.apache.org/docs_0_80/locationmap.html#linkrewriting
+Oct 04 17:54:29 <rgardler>	site and ext  uses the structure of site.xml to build the
name of the link
+Oct 04 17:54:38 <rgardler>	i.e. site:path/to/node
+Oct 04 17:54:53 <rgardler>	this means that you cannot change the structure of your
navgation document
+Oct 04 17:54:59 <rgardler>	lm uses a completely separate namespace
+Oct 04 17:55:13 <rgardler>	thus we can change site.xml as much as we like
+Oct 04 17:55:23 <rgardler>	We could even modifiy the lm so that it used ID's in site.xml
+Oct 04 17:56:17 <rgardler>	this doesn'r fix the problem, but means we can proceed 
+Oct 04 17:56:20 <rgardler>	and we have two less protocols to deal with
+Oct 04 17:56:33 <rgardler>	and we can finally create a dtd for site.xml
+Oct 04 17:57:09 <crossley>	I feel depressed thinking about all the documentation changes
+Oct 04 17:57:24 <rgardler>	Yes, that is a big effort
+Oct 04 17:57:29 <rgardler>	but then so is the XHTML2 move
+Oct 04 17:57:40 <rgardler>	and views
+Oct 04 17:57:44 <rgardler>	and sitemap refactoring
+Oct 04 17:57:56 <rgardler>	in otherwords we have to rewrite every document already'
+Oct 04 17:58:07 <rgardler>	I'm thinking of this as a 1.0 release
+Oct 04 17:58:42 <crossley>	so many changes at once doesn't help, just makes it worse
+Oct 04 17:59:07 <rgardler>	It need not be at once
+Oct 04 17:59:14 <rgardler>	*if* we do this
+Oct 04 17:59:25 <rgardler>	it is to enable us to move on with views
+Oct 04 17:59:33 <rgardler>	and to remove duplicated functionality
+Oct 04 17:59:40 <rgardler>	it can happen in the 0.8 release
+Oct 04 17:59:50 <rgardler>	others parts change in 0.9 and on
+Oct 04 18:00:12 <rgardler>	Of course, fixing a bug is better for the community
+Oct 04 18:00:22 <rgardler>	but do we need to fix this particular bug?
+Oct 04 18:01:04 <rgardler>	Anyway, I'm +1 for fixing the bug or removing the functionlaity
+Oct 04 18:01:16 <rgardler>	right now I've got to go, I'll be back later
+Oct 04 18:01:20 <tscherler>	for dev of views no, for getting rid of skins yes
+Oct 04 18:01:37 <crossley>	There is surely far more to the site: and ext: protocols
than just linkrewriting
+Oct 04 18:02:12 <rgardler>	(please expand David, and post a current log before you
go to bed, I have to take my machine with me)
+Oct 04 18:02:14 <crossley>	thanks Ross, we will regroup later
+Oct 04 18:03:58 <crossley>	thorsten: >>for dev of views no, for getting rid of
skins yes .... pleas expand
+Oct 04 18:04:53 <crossley>	why is the JXPath problem related to skins
+Oct 04 18:05:16 <tscherler>	Actually I did not even noticed that the linkrewritting
was broken in run mode till you pointed it out
+Oct 04 18:05:42 <tscherler>	because linkrewritting is big part of forrest
+Oct 04 18:05:56 <--	rgardler has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]")
+Oct 04 18:06:09 <crossley>	yes, but not specific to "skins"
+Oct 04 18:06:20 <tscherler>	if we want to officially state that views are replacing
skins then everything that was working with skins should work with views
+Oct 04 18:06:28 <tscherler>	that is right david
+Oct 04 18:07:17 <crossley>	i suppose so, we can't just dump existing users
+Oct 04 18:08:46 <crossley>	Anyway, i am going to try to spend some more time today
trying to fix the JXPath issue in Cocoon
+Oct 04 18:09:19 <tscherler>	:)
+Oct 04 18:09:23 <crossley>	but, i have already been trying for weeks.
+Oct 04 18:09:25 <tscherler>	you are the best dude
+Oct 04 18:09:30 <tscherler>	me too
+Oct 04 18:09:49 <tscherler>	it is just too much touching jx specific code
+Oct 04 18:10:41 <crossley>	why so, it is just that the Linkrewriter (or Input Modules)
are not dealing with the namespace
+Oct 04 18:11:05 <crossley>	the linkrewriter code actually has a fixme comment about
that.
+Oct 04 18:11:32 <crossley>	namespace on the site.xml input file, i mean
+Oct 04 18:14:08 <tscherler>	but actually site: , ...: is not a ns
+Oct 04 18:14:25 <tscherler>	it is a trigger for the rewritting
+Oct 04 18:15:48 <crossley>	no that is not the problem
+Oct 04 18:16:23 <crossley>	... from site.xml ...
+Oct 04 18:16:35 <crossley>	<site label="Forrest" href="" xmlns="http://apache.org/forrest/linkmap/1.0"
tab="home">
+Oct 04 18:16:40 <crossley>	...
+Oct 04 18:16:47 <crossley>	if that is instead ...
+Oct 04 18:17:53 <crossley>	<site label="Forrest" href=""  tab="home">
+Oct 04 18:18:04 <crossley>	then no problem
+Oct 04 18:18:09 <tscherler>	oh
+Oct 04 18:18:11 <tscherler>	interessting
+Oct 04 18:18:20 <tscherler>	rt
+Oct 04 18:18:23 <crossley>	but doing that creates a different problem
+Oct 04 18:18:30 <tscherler>	which?
+Oct 04 18:18:32 <crossley>	...
+Oct 04 18:18:46 <tscherler>	I wait with the rt remark
+Oct 04 18:19:08 <crossley>	okay i am getting a reference ...
+Oct 04 18:20:10 <crossley>	issues.apache.org/jira is so slow ...
+Oct 04 18:20:41 <crossley>	http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FOR-675 ... see the
fourth comment
+Oct 04 18:21:23 <tscherler>	moment
+Oct 04 18:21:25 <crossley>	"Removing the namespace declaration from our site.xml lets
the "site:" etc. links get resolved properly. However doing that removes the left-hand menus
too. Obviously not the solution, but shows that namespace is something to do with the problem."
+Oct 04 18:24:35 <tscherler>	ah
+Oct 04 18:25:41 <tscherler>	let me have a look into the code
+Oct 04 18:25:53 <tscherler>	I may have an idea
+Oct 04 18:27:25 <tscherler>	crossley the tabs are still working?
+Oct 04 18:27:51 <crossley>	i think so ... i will check.
+Oct 04 18:28:36 <tscherler>	http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/forrest/trunk/whiteboard/plugins/org.apache.forrest.plugin.internal.structurer/menu.xmap?view=markup
+Oct 04 18:29:42 <tscherler>	here are the transforms that are responsible for rewriting
of the menu
+Oct 04 18:29:57 <tscherler>	e.g. <map:transform src="{forrest:stylesheets}/absolutize-linkmap.xsl"
/>
+Oct 04 18:31:16 <crossley>	verified, tabs still work but the left-hand menu disappears
+Oct 04 18:32:13 <crossley>	... i am talking convention skins there, e.g. in site-author
+Oct 04 18:32:15 <tscherler>	then IMO we can limit the debugging for now to above linked
xmap
+Oct 04 18:32:26 <tscherler>	ah
+Oct 04 18:32:44 <tscherler>	then it is the menu.xmap in main
+Oct 04 18:34:31 <crossley>	checking behaviour in views ...
+Oct 04 18:35:01 <tscherler>	crossley I will need to do some work (will still be in
this chat but reaction time will be high)
+Oct 04 18:35:22 ---	tscherler is now known as tscherler_afk
+Oct 04 18:35:23 <crossley>	... verified, same there
+Oct 04 18:35:26 <tscherler_afk>	ok
+Oct 04 18:35:34 <crossley>	okay
+Oct 04 18:35:43 <tscherler_afk>	that makes sense because we are using the same stylesheets
+Oct 04 18:36:04 <tscherler_afk>	means if we fix it for views or skins we fixed it for
both
+Oct 04 18:36:16 <crossley>	yep
+Oct 04 18:38:06 <crossley>	removing the namespace from site.xml is not really fixing
the issue though. But it would enable us to continue work.
+Oct 04 18:39:09 <tscherler_afk>	I will have a look in the java classes after work
+Oct 04 18:40:04 <crossley>	great, if you mean Linkrewriter, then Cocoon trunk has a
new sample to test it
+Oct 04 18:40:11 <tscherler_afk>	ok
+Oct 04 18:40:14 <tscherler_afk>	cheers
+Oct 04 18:40:27 <crossley>	happy working, see you later
+Oct 04 18:40:43 <tscherler_afk>	btw what happends if we do not the standard namepace
+Oct 04 18:41:37 <crossley>	same, there is no standard.
+Oct 04 18:42:18 <tscherler_afk>	but <site:site label="Forrest" href="" xmlns:site="http://apache.org/forrest/linkmap/1.0"
tab="home">
+Oct 04 18:42:22 <crossley>	i gather the namespace is not being handled at all
+Oct 04 18:42:29 <tscherler_afk>	ok
+Oct 04 18:42:38 <crossley>	oh wait
+Oct 04 18:43:02 <crossley>	i misunderstood your question, will try ...
+Oct 04 18:43:07 <tscherler_afk>	cheers
+Oct 04 18:51:35 <crossley>	in forrest/site-author/
+Oct 04 18:53:20 <crossley>	either qualifying the namespace as xmnls:site of removing
the namespace attribute
+Oct 04 18:54:09 <crossley>	makes the "site:" etc links work properly. The side-effect
is that the left-hand menu disappears.
+Oct 04 18:54:52 <crossley>	s/of removing/or removing/
+Oct 04 18:55:02 <tscherler_afk>	david
+Oct 04 18:55:11 <crossley>	hmm
+Oct 04 18:55:16 <tscherler_afk>	did you add site: to all nodes?
+Oct 04 18:55:38 <crossley>	bleah, no
+Oct 04 18:55:42 <tscherler_afk>	;-)
+Oct 04 18:55:58 <tscherler_afk>	try with a couple
+Oct 04 18:56:08 <crossley>	same thought
+Oct 04 18:56:34 <tscherler_afk>	jeje
+Oct 04 18:57:57 <crossley>	no change
+Oct 04 18:58:04 <tscherler_afk>	ok
+Oct 04 18:58:14 <crossley>	svn revert site.xml
+Oct 04 18:59:28 <crossley>	i have some other thing to investigate with that bug, so
will go quiet on IRC
+Oct 04 18:59:55 <tscherler_afk>	ok
+Oct 04 19:00:07 <crossley>	and cook dinner/ watch Dr Who
+Oct 04 19:07:30 <tscherler_afk>	lol
+Oct 04 19:21:44 -->	JennyCurran (n=eggdrop@80.224.64.103) has joined #for-oct
+Oct 04 19:23:34 <--	JennyCurran (n=eggdrop@80.224.64.103) has left #for-oct
+Oct 04 19:23:40 -->	JennyCurran (n=eggdrop@80.224.64.103) has joined #for-oct
+Oct 04 19:26:45 -->	cheche (n=cheche@80.224.64.103) has joined #for-oct
+Oct 04 19:26:53 <cheche>	good morning!
+Oct 04 19:43:41 <tscherler_afk>	hi cheche
+Oct 04 19:44:51 <cheche>	hey man..........
+Oct 04 19:45:00 <cheche>	I camejust to setup JennyCurran
+Oct 04 19:45:08 <tscherler_afk>	:)
+Oct 04 19:45:11 <cheche>	how is everything?
+Oct 04 19:45:15 <tscherler_afk>	fine
+Oct 04 19:45:22 <tscherler_afk>	working 
+Oct 04 19:45:35 <tscherler_afk>	y tu?
+Oct 04 19:45:40 <cheche>	bueno tambien!
+Oct 04 19:45:42 <cheche>	jajajajajajajjaaj
+Oct 04 19:45:45 <cheche>	look at it:
+Oct 04 19:45:47 <cheche>	http://casa.che-che.com/pootle/
+Oct 04 19:45:51 <cheche>	is a language server
+Oct 04 19:46:12 <cheche>	the files are in po
+Oct 04 19:46:25 <cheche>	but is a web front end for people to translate
+Oct 04 19:46:32 <cheche>	kind of colaboration tool
+Oct 04 19:47:12 <tscherler_afk>	jeje nice logo ;-)
+Oct 04 19:47:25 <cheche>	but it is not mine...
+Oct 04 19:48:04 <tscherler_afk>	i know

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