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From cross...@apache.org
Subject svn commit: r290041 - /forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20050918-log.txt
Date Mon, 19 Sep 2005 01:38:57 GMT
Author: crossley
Date: Sun Sep 18 18:38:52 2005
New Revision: 290041

URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs?rev=290041&view=rev
Log:
Complete log.

Modified:
    forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20050918-log.txt

Modified: forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20050918-log.txt
URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs/forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20050918-log.txt?rev=290041&r1=290040&r2=290041&view=diff
==============================================================================
--- forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20050918-log.txt (original)
+++ forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20050918-log.txt Sun Sep 18 18:38:52 2005
@@ -1,27 +1,29 @@
+Sorry, local time in this log (GMT +10)
+
 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Sep 17 02:21:41 2005
 
 Sep 17 02:21:41 -->	You are now talking on #for-s2
 Sep 17 02:21:41 ---	niven.freenode.net sets mode +n #for-s2
 Sep 17 02:21:41 ---	niven.freenode.net sets mode +s #for-s2
-Sep 17 12:10:49 -->	JennyCurran (n=eggdrop@80.174.108.140) has joined #for-s2
+Sep 17 12:10:49 -->	JennyCurran (n=eggdrop) has joined #for-s2
 Sep 18 21:42:27 ---	xley2 sets mode +n #for-s2
 Sep 18 21:45:37 ---	xley2 has changed the topic to: Decide how to approach xhtml2/views
-Sep 19 03:12:14 -->	tscherler (n=thorsten@d83-180-138-175.cust.tele2.es) has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 03:12:14 -->	tscherler has joined #for-s2
 Sep 19 03:12:36 <tscherler>	hi JennyCurran
 Sep 19 03:12:41 <tscherler>	hi xley2
-Sep 19 04:16:56 -->	diwaker (n=diwaker@adsl-67-124-200-169.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net) has
joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 04:16:56 -->	diwaker has joined #for-s2
 Sep 19 04:17:15 <diwaker>	hey guys
 Sep 19 04:17:27 <diwaker>	am i late? have been travelling a lot so missed out the exact
time
 Sep 19 04:17:43 <diwaker>	can someone point out jenny's url so that i can look at the
logs
 Sep 19 04:36:39 <diwaker>	ok so i'm early then :-)
-Sep 19 04:48:01 -->	tscherle1 (n=thorsten@d83-180-138-149.cust.tele2.es) has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 04:48:01 -->	tscherle1  has joined #for-s2
 Sep 19 05:03:51 <--	tscherler has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
 Sep 19 05:06:14 ---	tscherle1 is now known as tscherler
 Sep 19 05:39:44 <--	diwaker has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
 Sep 19 06:38:11 -->	xley (n=crossley@apache/committer/xley) has joined #for-s2
 Sep 19 06:40:01 ---	xley is now known as crossley
 Sep 19 06:47:29 ---	tscherler is now known as thorsten_walking
-Sep 19 06:54:15 -->	rgardler (n=chatzill@82-69-78-226.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) has joined
#for-s2
+Sep 19 06:54:15 -->	rgardler has joined #for-s2
 Sep 19 06:54:32 <rgardler>	Hi Jenny ;-)
 Sep 19 06:58:06 <rgardler>	whois crossley
 Sep 19 06:59:07 <rgardler>	(sorry just playing with commands - previous entry - forgot
the slash)
@@ -34,7 +36,7 @@
 Sep 19 07:00:57 <rgardler>	This masks your IP number
 Sep 19 07:01:49 <rgardler>	I'm not sure how it works but see committers/docs/freenode-cloaks.txt
(i.e in committers module in CVS)
 Sep 19 07:02:20 <rgardler>	errr. that will be in SVN
-Sep 19 07:02:29 -->	tscherler (n=thorsten@d83-180-130-13.cust.tele2.es) has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 07:02:29 -->	tscherler has joined #for-s2
 Sep 19 07:02:47 <rgardler>	Good evening Thorsten
 Sep 19 07:02:50 <crossley>	Hmm, i have a cloak for my primary nickname 'xley'
 Sep 19 07:02:54 <tscherler>	hi all
@@ -71,7 +73,7 @@
 Sep 19 07:14:38 <tscherler>	anyway
 Sep 19 07:14:46 <tscherler>	jupp
 Sep 19 07:15:12 <rgardler>	In the meanitme shall we proceed? it's 15 mins past start
time now
-Sep 19 07:15:52 -->	twilliams_ (n=twilliam@pcp03386307pcs.dallas01.ga.comcast.net) has
joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 07:15:52 -->	twilliams_ has joined #for-s2
 Sep 19 07:16:05 <tscherler>	give me a moment
 Sep 19 07:16:08 <rgardler>	Heh, Tim - good timing - you missed nothing yet
 Sep 19 07:16:48 <twilliams_>	thanks, sorry for the tardiness - wife's fault;)
@@ -95,7 +97,7 @@
 Sep 19 07:23:15 <rgardler>	So you'll be waking up now then?
 Sep 19 07:23:26 <xley>	no coffee yet
 Sep 19 07:23:43 <rgardler>	GO get Coffeee, the sun is risin you must toast the day
-Sep 19 07:24:05 -->	tscherler (n=thorsten@d83-180-130-13.cust.tele2.es) has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 07:24:05 -->	tscherler has joined #for-s2
 Sep 19 07:24:07 <rgardler>	I'm going for a whiskey while Thorsten is rebooting
 Sep 19 07:24:08 <tscherler>	back
 Sep 19 07:24:14 <tscherler>	jeje
@@ -104,7 +106,7 @@
 Sep 19 07:24:37 ---	xley is now known as crossley
 Sep 19 07:25:28 <crossley>	coffee can wait. Are we ready now?
 Sep 19 07:25:35 <rgardler>	I'm ready
-Sep 19 07:25:49 -->	tscherle1 (n=thorsten@d83-180-130-13.cust.tele2.es) has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 07:25:49 -->	tscherle1 has joined #for-s2
 Sep 19 07:26:05 <rgardler>	Wow there's too of him, no wonder he gets so much done
 Sep 19 07:26:05 <tscherle1>	http://www.voresoel.dk/main.php?id=70 
 Sep 19 07:26:14 <tscherle1>	:)
@@ -407,7 +409,7 @@
 Sep 19 09:00:38 <crossley>	ah thanks
 Sep 19 09:00:46 <rgardler>	So, Thorsten, your conclusion please
 Sep 19 09:05:08 <twilliams_>	ummm... thorsten... you're on.... take the stage please...;)
-Sep 19 09:07:19 -->	thorsten_ (n=thorsten@d83-180-128-70.cust.tele2.es) has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 09:07:19 -->	thorsten_ has joined #for-s2
 Sep 19 09:07:25 <thorsten_>	argh
 Sep 19 09:07:38 <thorsten_>	wha d I meiss
 Sep 19 09:07:52 <thorsten_>	I got kick out and I am on a new client
@@ -451,10 +453,10 @@
 Sep 19 09:16:14 <--	tscherler has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
 Sep 19 09:16:22 <rgardler>	I'll mail him the last part of the log
 Sep 19 09:17:44 <crossley>	thorsten ... tell us when you are back and ready.
-Sep 19 09:18:00 -->	tscherler (n=thorsten@d83-180-128-70.cust.tele2.es) has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 09:18:00 -->	tscherler has joined #for-s2
 Sep 19 09:18:15 <rgardler>	David, I know you don't like Cricket much but, what is the
national mood regarding the Ashes?
 Sep 19 09:18:39 <rgardler>	(Thorsten I mailed you the last part of the log from when
you got kicked first time, let us know when you caugt up)
-Sep 19 09:18:53 -->	cheche (n=cheche@80.174.108.140) has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 09:18:53 -->	cheche has joined #for-s2
 Sep 19 09:19:14 <tscherler>	cheers ross
 Sep 19 09:19:18 <tscherler>	ok it
 Sep 19 09:19:26 <tscherler>	means the xhtml2 plugin
@@ -462,7 +464,7 @@
 Sep 19 09:19:41 <rgardler>	(Jenny woke up and didn't like the look of us)
 Sep 19 09:19:45 <tscherler>	we can add it to the project and use it instead of any
other src
 Sep 19 09:19:47 <tscherler>	right?
-Sep 19 09:19:50 -->	JennyCurran (n=eggdrop@80.174.108.140) has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 09:19:50 -->	JennyCurran (n=eggdrop) has joined #for-s2
 Sep 19 09:20:01 <tscherler>	cheers cheche
 Sep 19 09:20:09 <rgardler>	Thanks Cheche
 Sep 19 09:20:22 <cheche>	hi all!
@@ -529,3 +531,453 @@
 Sep 19 09:36:53 <rgardler>	Thorsten said : output(contracts) - please give an example
of a contract that is used on the output side
 Sep 19 09:37:36 <tscherler>	all our current contracts are xhtml output, right?
 Sep 19 09:37:40 <twilliams_>	yep
+Sep 19 09:38:33 <twilliams_>	i'm thoroughly confused
+Sep 19 09:38:53 <rgardler>	yes
+Sep 19 09:39:11 <rgardler>	(Tim, I'll come back to you, I just want to understand where
Thorsten is going with this)
+Sep 19 09:40:14 <tscherler>	hmm, what do you mean
+Sep 19 09:43:06 <rgardler>	ross IMO their should only output document2xhmtl2 ->
I do not understand whatt his means
+Sep 19 09:44:39 <thorsten_>	that their only should provide the internal format
+Sep 19 09:44:44 <crossley>	log until now is at http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20050918-log.txt
+Sep 19 09:45:20 <crossley>	then JennyCurran is at: http://casa.che-che.com/~bot/forrest/forrest.log.19Sep2005
+Sep 19 09:45:54 <cheche>	crossley: sorry about that, it was because the channel name
changed 
+Sep 19 09:46:04 <rgardler>	(David, thanks)
+Sep 19 09:46:06 <cheche>	and I forgot to change the channel to log 
+Sep 19 09:47:09 <rgardler>	Thorsten please read the logs from: "I think Thorsten and
I were just agreeing that the goal of the XHTML2 plugin is just to create contracts that are
XHMTL2 aware" and then explain again what you are trying to say, because I don't understand
+Sep 19 09:47:45 <rgardler>	In the meantime, Tim, are you confused in the same way that
I am or is it something else?
+Sep 19 09:48:23 <twilliams_>	in toto
+Sep 19 09:49:01 <twilliams_>	i thought i was tracking, agreeing, with everything right
up until your summary...
+Sep 19 09:49:11 <twilliams_>	"OK, we are inagreement on input side then, contracts
produce XHTML2 for consumption in the core, now lets look at the output side"
+Sep 19 09:49:39 <twilliams_>	i thought we were saying that we normalize to xhtml2 with
input plugins
+Sep 19 09:49:45 <twilliams_>	xhtml2, therefore, is our internal format
+Sep 19 09:50:04 <twilliams_>	contracts define the output
+Sep 19 09:50:21 <twilliams_>	therefore, output plugins include the contracts
+Sep 19 09:50:29 <twilliams_>	so...
+Sep 19 09:50:59 <crossley>	cheche: i wondered that, no worries, we will talk later
on-list about managing this IRC better, we are doing great, but slight improvements.
+Sep 19 09:51:08 <twilliams_>	i've missed where the input plugins *use* contracts to
do the transformation vs. a myformat2xhtml2
+Sep 19 09:51:17 <cheche>	crossley: ok
+Sep 19 09:51:49 <rgardler>	OK, I see your confusion Tim
+Sep 19 09:51:55 <twilliams_>	i recognize that it may be benefitial for them to provide
some additional/override contracts because they may have richer data and need to express how
it is used
+Sep 19 09:52:38 <rgardler>	Have you looked at the Resume plugin? (I ask so that I know
where to pitch my explanation)
+Sep 19 09:52:55 <twilliams_>	but i don't see how the contract itself "contracts produce
XHTML2 for consumption in the core"
+Sep 19 09:53:27 <tscherler>	(00:53:11) twilliams_: but i don't see how the contract
itself "contracts produce XHTML2 for consumption in the core"-> I just looking at the resume
plugin and do not dsee this either
+Sep 19 09:53:30 <twilliams_>	noo
+Sep 19 09:53:46 <twilliams_>	i can though if it won't waste folks time
+Sep 19 09:54:32 <rgardler>	No, I need to explain it Tim
+Sep 19 09:54:45 <rgardler>	The resume plugin uses a resume DTD as input
+Sep 19 09:55:41 <rgardler>	(I just realised the committed version of the plugin doesn't
do this - no wonder you are all confused - sorry)
+Sep 19 09:55:50 <rgardler>	I'll start from the beginning and assume nothing
+Sep 19 09:56:06 <rgardler>	The resume plugin uses a resume DTD as input
+Sep 19 09:56:10 <twilliams_>	maybe whip out the hand-puppets;)
+Sep 19 09:56:17 <rgardler>	Currently there is an XSL that transforms this to XDoc
+Sep 19 09:56:40 <rgardler>	then there are a load of contracts that work on the ouptut
stage
+Sep 19 09:56:58 <rgardler>	However, as I explain in my proposal for XHTML2 in core
+Sep 19 09:57:12 <rgardler>	contracts define *content*
+Sep 19 09:58:07 <rgardler>	The resume contracts should therefore convert the resume
source to XHTML at the *input* stage, they are only relevant to that document type anyway
(they are things like "skills", "employment history", education" etc.)
+Sep 19 09:58:56 <rgardler>	So the contracts at this point are creating XHTML2 and we
remove the need for a resume2internal XSL
+Sep 19 09:59:08 <rgardler>	Does this make any sense?
+Sep 19 09:59:30 <crossley>	yes
+Sep 19 10:00:57 <tscherler>	yes
+Sep 19 10:01:03 <twilliams_>	not sure
+Sep 19 10:01:32 <twilliams_>	so there are two sets of contracts?
+Sep 19 10:01:33 <rgardler>	Tim, questions (someone else answer, I'll be back in 5 mins)
+Sep 19 10:01:50 <twilliams_>	input contracts and output contracts
+Sep 19 10:02:10 <twilliams_>	normalizing contracts and rendition contracts?
+Sep 19 10:02:54 <twilliams_>	maybe i'm just stuck on the current views as an output
framework
+Sep 19 10:02:56 <twilliams_>	?
+Sep 19 10:03:25 <crossley>	that is also what worried me when i interrupted thorsten
earlier
+Sep 19 10:03:48 <crossley>	33 minutes ago
+Sep 19 10:04:30 <twilliams_>	my client, xchat, doesn't timestamp this session apparently
+Sep 19 10:04:51 <tscherler>	current contracts are only output
+Sep 19 10:05:14 <tscherler>	but contracts are more a concept of doing things
+Sep 19 10:05:20 <crossley>	try Settings, my xchat does
+Sep 19 10:05:38 <tscherler>	they are basically xsl templates
+Sep 19 10:06:02 <twilliams_>	crossley try Settings, my xchat does>> imagine that;)
 thanks
+Sep 19 10:06:06 <tscherler>	and what you normally do with one big xsl you can do now
with a bunch of contracts
+Sep 19 10:07:00 <twilliams_>	i guess my question is... why?  what's the value added
in breaking up contracts and, presumably, a *fv to do what a simply myformat2xhtml2 would
do?
+Sep 19 10:07:32 <rgardler>	I'm back...
+Sep 19 10:07:42 <twilliams_>	also, if it's to be used in both of these ways this terminology
needs to get worked out desparately
+Sep 19 10:08:22 <rgardler>	Tim, terminology - you are right, we are working on it
+Sep 19 10:08:27 <tscherler>	the advantage is that you can easily exchange contracts
+Sep 19 10:08:56 <twilliams_>	when working against one format (ala output) but not so
much on the input side
+Sep 19 10:09:15 <tscherler>	like I said it is more a concept
+Sep 19 10:09:16 <twilliams_>	in other words, i *get* contracts-benefit in general
+Sep 19 10:09:36 <tscherler>	you can apply them where u want
+Sep 19 10:10:10 <rgardler>	The advantage on the input side is that I can take a very
large XML input and use contracts to strip out everything I don't need - giving me a smaller
document for the rest of the processing - a *big* performance improvement
+Sep 19 10:10:35 <twilliams_>	and that's different than a myformat2xhtml2 how?
+Sep 19 10:10:39 <rgardler>	(I should say, a major advantage for my use cases)
+Sep 19 10:11:39 <rgardler>	myformat2xhtml2 is a single output, if I want to have 10
diferent versions of the document that is 10 different stylesheets (i.e. same benefit as on
output)
+Sep 19 10:13:30 <twilliams_>	why would one want to do that except on output?
+Sep 19 10:14:10 <tscherler>	because an oputput plugin can request only a specific inpu
+Sep 19 10:14:12 <rgardler>	On one of my installations I have a source document that
is 2 Mb and growing, it needs to be rendered in 3 different ways for 3 different users...
+Sep 19 10:14:28 <rgardler>	If I do it on output *every* stage of the core processing
works on 2Mb files
+Sep 19 10:14:44 <rgardler>	if I do it on input each file is around 200K 
+Sep 19 10:14:57 <tscherler>	because you strip it
+Sep 19 10:14:58 <rgardler>	(yeah I know they should design the data generating app
better, but that is legacy stuff)
+Sep 19 10:15:03 <tscherler>	with contracts 
+Sep 19 10:15:33 <crossley>	this sounds like what nicola ken called a "pre-processing"
plugin
+Sep 19 10:16:14 <rgardler>	David, in concept yes, I apply it much more widely though,
but I'm holding back until we get back to the ourput side
+Sep 19 10:16:38 <rgardler>	Tim?
+Sep 19 10:16:58 <twilliams_>	i don't know, i'll have to "walk" the pipeline with that
example and "see" how the size difference would be impacted
+Sep 19 10:17:52 <rgardler>	It's around a 280% performance increase (per page generation)
with SVN head from last week - this is a live data stream, so caching is not possible
+Sep 19 10:18:21 <tscherler>	ross you owe me a beer ;-)
+Sep 19 10:18:23 <tscherler>	lol
+Sep 19 10:18:39 <twilliams_>	ok
+Sep 19 10:18:54 <rgardler>	I think we all owe everyone lots of beers ;-)
+Sep 19 10:19:09 <tscherler>	yes that is right
+Sep 19 10:19:19 <twilliams_>	speaking of that... i'll be back, i've got to make a trip
to the garage frig
+Sep 19 10:19:19 <tscherler>	but 280% is worth a beer ;-)
+Sep 19 10:19:26 <rgardler>	OK, so Tim, has the confusion subsided?
+Sep 19 10:19:38 <rgardler>	Thorsten, you are right, but more than one surely
+Sep 19 10:19:45 <tscherler>	jeje
+Sep 19 10:19:48 <tscherler>	:)
+Sep 19 10:19:56 <tscherler>	looking forward ;-)
+Sep 19 10:20:04 <twilliams_>	yeah, i get what you're talking about now...  that's a
start i suppose
+Sep 19 10:20:12 <rgardler>	:-))
+Sep 19 10:20:24 <rgardler>	OK, so let me get back to output plugins...
+Sep 19 10:21:03 <rgardler>	In my view we do not need contracts at the output stage,
because we have them on the input stage, all we need on output is XHTML2 -> output format
+Sep 19 10:23:11 <rgardler>	(I almost hear the groans we can leave the output part for
another time if you like)
+Sep 19 10:23:19 <tscherler>	+1
+Sep 19 10:23:41 <tscherler>	sry it is getting late
+Sep 19 10:23:44 <crossley>	rgardler: i was waiting for your next long sentence
+Sep 19 10:24:11 <twilliams_>	+1 to next time
+Sep 19 10:24:12 <crossley>	irc works better if you send a sentence in parts
+Sep 19 10:24:22 <rgardler>	O
+Sep 19 10:24:24 <rgardler>	K
+Sep 19 10:24:27 <rgardler>	:-)
+Sep 19 10:24:32 <crossley>	:-)
+Sep 19 10:24:53 <rgardler>	So do we have an agreement about
+Sep 19 10:24:56 <rgardler>	how to move forward?
+Sep 19 10:25:01 <crossley>	so i don't undertsand
+Sep 19 10:25:28 <crossley>	your statement ross : "because we have them on the input
stage,"
+Sep 19 10:25:39 <crossley>	so the input plugin
+Sep 19 10:25:55 <crossley>	is decalring the output stuff?
+Sep 19 10:26:18 <rgardler>	The input plugin provides contracts
+Sep 19 10:26:25 <rgardler>	that can be used by the structurer
+Sep 19 10:26:32 <rgardler>	to retrieve the content for the output
+Sep 19 10:26:48 <twilliams_>	contracts for the normalized format... what about 2html
contracts?
+Sep 19 10:27:16 <rgardler>	an output plugin provides XHTML2 to HTML conversion
+Sep 19 10:27:23 <rgardler>	(or contracts - to be decided)
+Sep 19 10:28:47 <twilliams_>	it seems to me to get the beneift of an input contract,
you'd need a matching output contract to take advantage of the presumably richer data
+Sep 19 10:29:18 <rgardler>	Possibly, like I said, to be decided.
+Sep 19 10:29:21 <twilliams_>	this leads me to question why plugins are input||internal||output
vs one or more of them
+Sep 19 10:29:33 <twilliams_>	ok
+Sep 19 10:29:40 <twilliams_>	to be continued?
+Sep 19 10:29:50 <rgardler>	The input/internal/output was a design decision before views
existed
+Sep 19 10:29:59 <twilliams_>	yeah
+Sep 19 10:30:02 <rgardler>	we may need to reconsider as part of this work, yes.
+Sep 19 10:30:11 <twilliams_>	i know that, i'm just letting it be known that i'm questioning
it
+Sep 19 10:30:30 <twilliams_>	so that if it's a stupid thing to question, someone can
save me the brain cycles
+Sep 19 10:30:42 <rgardler>	No, it is a good thing to question
+Sep 19 10:30:46 <crossley>	very relevant
+Sep 19 10:31:34 <rgardler>	I think I can sum up, although Thorsten has not tried to
explain where I got confused earlier
+Sep 19 10:31:41 <rgardler>	Thorsten do you want to speak?
+Sep 19 10:31:45 <tscherler>	actually views can bypass the core and that is what ross
is saying
+Sep 19 10:32:30 <rgardler>	am I, please expand a little
+Sep 19 10:32:34 <tscherler>	I took input|internal|output for given
+Sep 19 10:33:23 <tscherler>	but what ross brought foward is to completly use views
on the input site providing as well poutput contracts
+Sep 19 10:33:46 <tscherler>	slimming down the core transformation
+Sep 19 10:34:20 <tscherler>	that is fine with me and we then ned to question our given
plugins
+Sep 19 10:34:49 <tscherler>	letś say the devision of it
+Sep 19 10:35:06 <twilliams_>	?
+Sep 19 10:35:09 <tscherler>	e.g.
+Sep 19 10:35:34 <tscherler>	I am requesting an url that is already html
+Sep 19 10:35:49 <tscherler>	i now have to transform taht to xdocs
+Sep 19 10:36:08 <tscherler>	but with view I can just forward it to xhmtl
+Sep 19 10:36:17 <tscherler>	no transformation needed
+Sep 19 10:36:27 <rgardler>	Yes, that is what I am saying
+Sep 19 10:36:44 <tscherler>	that is the way i see views as well
+Sep 19 10:36:46 <rgardler>	If contractsa re on the output side then we have to convert
to the internal format to use them
+Sep 19 10:37:07 <tscherler>	that is why I said there are changing the processing we
have now
+Sep 19 10:37:17 <rgardler>	However, we are moving to the next part of the big redesign
+Sep 19 10:37:23 <rgardler>	and it is late here in Europe
+Sep 19 10:37:48 <tscherler>	jupp
+Sep 19 10:38:06 <rgardler>	So, how to proceed. Shall I dare to try and make a proposal?
+Sep 19 10:38:08 <cheche>	yes, i am listening  and trying to catch up on the discussion..

+Sep 19 10:38:11 <tscherler>	pleas ross go ahean
+Sep 19 10:38:32 <rgardler>	Use the XHTML2 plugin to convert contracts to XHTML2
+Sep 19 10:38:46 <rgardler>	COntinue work in views plugins to remove *.page matcher
+Sep 19 10:39:05 <rgardler>	when *.page is gone strip out structurer.xmap
+Sep 19 10:39:10 <rgardler>	test
+Sep 19 10:39:40 <tscherler>	sorry to interuped what is xhtml2 plugin providing?
+Sep 19 10:40:11 <twilliams_>	xhtml2 contracts?
+Sep 19 10:40:35 <tscherler>	I am asking because IMO it ony provide content-* contracts
+Sep 19 10:41:21 <rgardler>	Good question, I'm struggling to word it,
+Sep 19 10:41:28 <rgardler>	I hope it is becasue I am tired...
+Sep 19 10:42:25 <tscherler>	Sep 19 07:30:36 <tscherle1>	Should the tab-* and
menu-* as well output xhtml2? 
+Sep 19 10:42:35 <rgardler>	XHMTL2 plugin provides contracts that take XHTML2 as input
and produce suitably marked up XHTML2 output
+Sep 19 10:42:58 <rgardler>	"suitably marked up" means ID's for TOC generation
+Sep 19 10:43:10 <rgardler>	navigation info (yes site + tabs)
+Sep 19 10:43:20 <tscherler>	hmm
+Sep 19 10:43:20 <rgardler>	page meta data
+Sep 19 10:43:22 <rgardler>	etc.
+Sep 19 10:43:57 <tscherler>	that means rewritting core pipes
+Sep 19 10:44:09 <tscherler>	please review my last commit
+Sep 19 10:44:37 <rgardler>	No, it means removing core pipes, 
+Sep 19 10:44:42 <tscherler>	that moved all common and leather-dev skin resources into
the internal view
+Sep 19 10:44:47 <twilliams_>	i've got to go now
+Sep 19 10:44:49 <rgardler>	i.e. no need for site2html pipes since they are provided
by contracts
+Sep 19 10:45:07 <tscherler>	There is no one in leather
+Sep 19 10:45:11 <rgardler>	Tim, we'll summarise via email onlist, I think we have enough
common understanding now
+Sep 19 10:45:19 <tscherler>	the common sliped through my radar ;-)
+Sep 19 10:45:27 <tscherler>	yeah tim
+Sep 19 10:45:29 <tscherler>	thx
+Sep 19 10:45:36 <twilliams_>	ok thanks all
+Sep 19 10:45:39 <twilliams_>	btw...
+Sep 19 10:45:45 <twilliams_>	is anyone planning to be at apachecon us?
+Sep 19 10:46:01 <rgardler>	I may make it, I'm presenting in Trinidad the week before
+Sep 19 10:46:11 <tscherler>	they did not accept my proposal, so I am not able to be
there :(
+Sep 19 10:46:59 <twilliams_>	ok, bye all....
+Sep 19 10:47:03 <tscherler>	bye
+Sep 19 10:47:04 <--	twilliams_ has quit ("Leaving")
+Sep 19 10:47:04 <crossley>	bye
+Sep 19 10:47:06 <rgardler>	Ferdinand will be there and Addi is hoping to be there for
the hackathon
+Sep 19 10:47:30 <rgardler>	Thorsten, I think I will need to review your commit
+Sep 19 10:47:40 <tscherler>	yeah
+Sep 19 10:47:45 <rgardler>	I'm not sure about skin stuff going into core
+Sep 19 10:47:52 <rgardler>	It's good you removed the dependency
+Sep 19 10:48:05 <rgardler>	Oh - hang on
+Sep 19 10:48:06 <tscherler>	;-)
+Sep 19 10:48:17 <rgardler>	I'm only thinking about the themeing side, there is more
to skins
+Sep 19 10:48:26 <rgardler>	I'll review your commit tomorrow
+Sep 19 10:48:50 <rgardler>	OK, so we don't have a conclusion,
+Sep 19 10:49:00 <tscherler>	(01:48:34) rgardler: I'm only thinking about the themeing
side, there is more to skins->tab-* and menu-*  ;-)
+Sep 19 10:49:02 <crossley>	not yet
+Sep 19 10:49:41 <rgardler>	I feel that we are moving to a new area
+Sep 19 10:49:48 <rgardler>	and clearly Thorsten has done work on that area
+Sep 19 10:49:58 <rgardler>	I propose we finish without a conclusion
+Sep 19 10:50:04 <tscherler>	not as much as I wanted ;-)
+Sep 19 10:50:16 <rgardler>	we have gained a great understanding of the alternative
approaches I think
+Sep 19 10:50:35 <rgardler>	Once I review Thorstens work
+Sep 19 10:50:52 <rgardler>	I can either throw out my idea or interate them with Thorstens
+Sep 19 10:51:01 <tscherler>	no
+Sep 19 10:51:02 <crossley>	i still not clear on what are the "alternatives"
+Sep 19 10:51:09 <tscherler>	we need to get together ross
+Sep 19 10:51:23 <tscherler>	especially you and me
+Sep 19 10:51:25 <tscherler>	;-)
+Sep 19 10:51:35 <rgardler>	Beer in Prague?
+Sep 19 10:51:41 <tscherler>	:)
+Sep 19 10:51:42 <tscherler>	+1
+Sep 19 10:52:07 <crossley>	+0
+Sep 19 10:52:10 <rgardler>	David care to enjoy one of the cheapest cities in Europe?
+Sep 19 10:52:40 <rgardler>	Have to find you a conference to present at
+Sep 19 10:53:00 <crossley>	erk, presentation is hard work
+Sep 19 10:53:26 <rgardler>	OK, a small contract job then
+Sep 19 10:53:33 <crossley>	:-)
+Sep 19 10:53:54 <rgardler>	David you were confused about the alternatives, thinking
about it, so am I
+Sep 19 10:54:11 <rgardler>	Thorsten, you supported Tims desire to simply replace the
docuemnt2html part
+Sep 19 10:54:13 <crossley>	so it must be late for you, regretfully wrap up soon
+Sep 19 10:54:16 <rgardler>	Is that still the case?
+Sep 19 10:54:31 <tscherler>	yes and no
+Sep 19 10:55:01 <tscherler>	I see that we should get the xhtml2 and view internal together
+Sep 19 10:55:08 <tscherler>	best right now
+Sep 19 10:55:40 <tscherler>	ans IMP xhtml2 is the smaller part and should be merged
into the internal views stuff
+Sep 19 10:55:55 <tscherler>	now
+Sep 19 10:56:22 <tscherler>	that is because I supported Tims desire to simply replace
the docuemnt2html part
+Sep 19 10:56:37 <tscherler>	that should be done in the internal.view plugin
+Sep 19 10:56:57 <tscherler>	now from there we can go all the way
+Sep 19 10:57:27 <tscherler>	but IMO that should happen in the core with a new branch
+Sep 19 10:57:39 <tscherler>	or in the internal.view plugin
+Sep 19 10:58:16 <tscherler>	because view will be a core technology in forrest
+Sep 19 10:59:07 <tscherler>	xhtml2 "just" a format
+Sep 19 10:59:54 <rgardler>	xhtml2 "just" a format -> yes, I agree
+Sep 19 11:00:26 <rgardler>	However, given our TR and how view fit into it
+Sep 19 11:00:43 <rgardler>	view do much more than *just* replace the last stage of
the skinning process
+Sep 19 11:00:56 <tscherler>	yes it is a filter as well
+Sep 19 11:01:07 <rgardler>	e.g. the whole concept of contracts on the input side (yes
filter)
+Sep 19 11:01:25 <rgardler>	Therefore, I think
+Sep 19 11:01:47 <rgardler>	it is not a case of simply enablng a new format
+Sep 19 11:01:51 <rgardler>	there is more to it
+Sep 19 11:01:57 <rgardler>	we need to leverage that new format
+Sep 19 11:02:10 <rgardler>	Consequently, I think we should stick wtih XDoc in trunk
+Sep 19 11:02:19 <rgardler>	and start a branch with XHTML2 for the 1.0 release
+Sep 19 11:02:29 <tscherler>	hmm
+Sep 19 11:02:31 <rgardler>	In thet branch we will rewrite the whole of FOrrest
+Sep 19 11:02:34 <tscherler>	why
+Sep 19 11:02:37 <tscherler>	xdocs
+Sep 19 11:02:44 <rgardler>	I see no benefit of moving to XHTML2 in the current version
of Forrest
+Sep 19 11:02:48 <rgardler>	What do we gain?
+Sep 19 11:02:49 <tscherler>	are only used in docuemnt2html
+Sep 19 11:03:10 <tscherler>	a standard format 
+Sep 19 11:03:32 <rgardler>	what does that give us in the short term?
+Sep 19 11:03:48 <tscherler>	:) 
+Sep 19 11:03:51 <cheche>	¿?¿?
+Sep 19 11:03:52 <tscherler>	e.g. lenya
+Sep 19 11:04:29 <rgardler>	Lenya produces XHTML
+Sep 19 11:04:29 <tscherler>	I can now output xhtml2 in lenya or daisy
+Sep 19 11:04:34 <cheche>	I think that you gain a lot. new existing input plugins go
to use xhtml instead of xdocs as output..
+Sep 19 11:04:41 <tscherler>	it is just yass
+Sep 19 11:04:58 <rgardler>	Good point Cheche
+Sep 19 11:05:03 <tscherler>	and cheche are saying what I meant
+Sep 19 11:05:31 <rgardler>	OK, 
+Sep 19 11:05:35 <cheche>	I have not followed all the discussion about this stuff.
+Sep 19 11:05:42 <tscherler>	:)
+Sep 19 11:05:42 <rgardler>	so we need an XDoc to XHTML2 plugin
+Sep 19 11:05:52 <tscherler>	yes
+Sep 19 11:06:03 <cheche>	I think that I have a bug id for that
+Sep 19 11:06:18 <rgardler>	we need the "partial" solution of replacing document2html
as Tim suggested
+Sep 19 11:06:50 <cheche>	http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FOR-15
+Sep 19 11:07:01 <cheche>	it was created 2 years ago..
+Sep 19 11:07:08 <cheche>	2 and a half
+Sep 19 11:07:11 <rgardler>	and we need a branch (could be plugin but I prefer branch
for a major reworking) for the XHTML2 on the input side
+Sep 19 11:07:15 <--	tscherler has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
+Sep 19 11:07:16 <--	thorsten_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
+Sep 19 11:07:43 <rgardler>	Thorsten crshed out again!
+Sep 19 11:07:55 <rgardler>	Cheche that issue is XHTML not XHTML2
+Sep 19 11:08:01 <cheche>	I know...
+Sep 19 11:08:09 -->	tscherler has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 11:08:14 <rgardler>	and it's assigned to you ;-)
+Sep 19 11:08:19 -->	thorsten_ has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 11:08:21 <tscherler>	(02:06:26) tscherler: I thought that as well the xhtml2
plugin was for
+Sep 19 11:08:22 <tscherler>	(02:08:26) El tema de #for-s2 es: Decide how to approach
xhtml2/views
+Sep 19 11:08:34 <cheche>	rgardler: I know...
+Sep 19 11:08:38 <tscherler>	I was off 2minutes
+Sep 19 11:08:44 <cheche>	but I have not hold that bug for that long...
+Sep 19 11:09:53 <rgardler>	Thorsten, you didn't miss anything, the logs have the few
lines you missed
+Sep 19 11:10:17 <cheche>	I think that for doing the migration to xhtml2 we need to
have this xdoc2xhtml stuff
+Sep 19 11:11:04 <tscherler>	ok catched up 
+Sep 19 11:11:06 <tscherler>	:)
+Sep 19 11:11:11 <rgardler>	No, XHTML is a completely different beast to XHTML
+Sep 19 11:11:13 <rgardler>	for example
+Sep 19 11:11:21 <rgardler>	XHTML uses <h1>, <h2>
+Sep 19 11:11:33 <rgardler>	but XHTML2 uses <section>s
+Sep 19 11:11:43 <rgardler>	XDoc2XHTML would lose our sections
+Sep 19 11:11:52 <rgardler>	then we would have to find a way of getting them back
+Sep 19 11:12:05 <rgardler>	I think we just need to start from document2html
+Sep 19 11:12:10 <tscherler>	xdocs uses <section> as well, or?
+Sep 19 11:12:40 <rgardler>	Cheche said: I think that for doing the migration to xhtml2
we need to have this xdoc2xhtml stuff
+Sep 19 11:12:49 <rgardler>	Note he says XHTML not XHTML2
+Sep 19 11:13:00 <cheche>	rgardler: sorry.. I wanted to write xdoc2xhtml2
+Sep 19 11:13:07 <tscherler>	I assumed slipping 2
+Sep 19 11:13:10 <rgardler>	OK, I agree then ;-)
+Sep 19 11:13:16 <cheche>	rgardler: you had same error : (02:11:20) rgardler: No, XHTML
is a completely different beast to XHTML
+Sep 19 11:13:30 <rgardler>	Yeah, I know it's happend three times in total!
+Sep 19 11:13:32 <tscherler>	lol
+Sep 19 11:13:38 <tscherler>	x2
+Sep 19 11:13:52 <tscherler>	I will use it instead of xhtml2
+Sep 19 11:13:59 <tscherler>	;-)
+Sep 19 11:14:10 <rgardler>	Surely you all know apples are not at all like apples?
+Sep 19 11:14:27 <rgardler>	errr. oranges... (or peaches in Spain)
+Sep 19 11:14:41 <crossley>	it will be great when xhtml2 is settled, then we won't need
to mention it by name. Same with the name "views".
+Sep 19 11:15:02 <crossley>	they are just part of the machinery.
+Sep 19 11:15:16 <rgardler>	Yeah, views is annoyuing me, I keep typing "in my view"
and then having to delete "view" and replace "opinion"
+Sep 19 11:15:17 <tscherler>	+1
+Sep 19 11:15:28 <tscherler>	lol
+Sep 19 11:15:55 <tscherler>	ok conclusion found?
+Sep 19 11:16:06 <rgardler>	Thorsten, do you wnat to try a bullet point conclusion?
+Sep 19 11:16:39 <tscherler>	you started ;-)
+Sep 19 11:16:55 <rgardler>	yeah, but I got cold feet, you try
+Sep 19 11:17:31 <tscherler>	- we should get the xhtml2 and view internal together
+Sep 19 11:18:03 <tscherler>	- xhtml2 should be merged into the internal views stuff,
simply replace the docuemnt2html part
+Sep 19 11:18:42 <tscherler>	- x2 plugin should provide xdocs2x2 convertion
+Sep 19 11:19:17 <tscherler>	- views should work with x2 input
+Sep 19 11:21:15 <tscherler>	- we need to write a x2 to xhtml plugin
+Sep 19 11:21:52 <tscherler>	that should be basically a bunch of contracts
+Sep 19 11:22:19 <tscherler>	roadmap:
+Sep 19 11:22:31 <tscherler>	1) create new branch
+Sep 19 11:22:48 <tscherler>	2) move view stuff and x2 stuff into core
+Sep 19 11:23:10 <tscherler>	3) resolving by both only allowed through lm
+Sep 19 11:23:37 <tscherler>	4) create xdocs2x2 plugin
+Sep 19 11:24:10 <tscherler>	5) create x2 to xhtml plugin
+Sep 19 11:24:41 <tscherler>	in this branch all skins are removed
+Sep 19 11:24:52 <tscherler>	only view is supported
+Sep 19 11:25:19 <tscherler>	skin pipes are to be refactored to output xhtml2
+Sep 19 11:25:41 *	tscherler ask please comment
+Sep 19 11:25:50 <rgardler>	1 - OK
+Sep 19 11:26:11 <rgardler>	2 OK (i.e. rip out structurer.xmap but keep contracts?)
+Sep 19 11:26:17 <rgardler>	3) OK
+Sep 19 11:26:21 <rgardler>	4) OK
+Sep 19 11:26:45 <rgardler>	5) done (just move XHTML2HTML stylesheet from x2 plugin)
+Sep 19 11:26:57 <rgardler>	remove skins OK, needs vote
+Sep 19 11:27:10 <rgardler>	skin pipes refactored OK
+Sep 19 11:27:13 <rgardler>	:-))
+Sep 19 11:27:17 <tscherler>	:)
+Sep 19 11:27:21 <rgardler>	http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FOR-184
+Sep 19 11:27:39 <rgardler>	(we need to clarify this issue - you and I should do that)
+Sep 19 11:28:47 <rgardler>	Are we done?
+Sep 19 11:28:57 <crossley>	So the old "skins" still continue to function?
+Sep 19 11:29:11 <crossley>	after we merge this beast?
+Sep 19 11:29:17 <tscherler>	no
+Sep 19 11:29:26 <rgardler>	We can make an internal plugin that provides backward compatability
+Sep 19 11:29:33 <tscherler>	yes
+Sep 19 11:29:39 <rgardler>	I think we need to do that otherwise users will not upgrade
+Sep 19 11:29:51 <tscherler>	+1
+Sep 19 11:30:00 <crossley>	rgardler: good but is that possible
+Sep 19 11:30:08 <tscherler>	yes it isd
+Sep 19 11:30:22 <rgardler>	Yes, at worst we simply take trunk and make it a plugin
;-)
+Sep 19 11:30:31 <tscherler>	+1
+Sep 19 11:30:33 <tscherler>	;-)
+Sep 19 11:30:45 <tscherler>	all skin related stuff
+Sep 19 11:30:55 <rgardler>	That is the main/webapp part of trunk
+Sep 19 11:31:21 <tscherler>	actually vies internal
+Sep 19 11:31:32 <tscherler>	sorry
+Sep 19 11:31:58 <tscherler>	I mean views internal have some of the skining stuff right
now
+Sep 19 11:32:23 <tscherler>	that and is needed for an internal skin plugin
+Sep 19 11:32:29 <rgardler>	David: after we merge this beast? -> I do not see us
merging this branch, I see this as a compelte rewrite
+Sep 19 11:32:40 <rgardler>	all the stripped out stuff goes in plugins
+Sep 19 11:32:54 <tscherler>	+1
+Sep 19 11:32:55 <rgardler>	we are lef with a really clean core that does nothing but
the structurer part
+Sep 19 11:33:30 <crossley>	radical. So we cease development on trunk?
+Sep 19 11:33:33 <rgardler>	If you know Eclipse you'll understand the beuaty of this
+Sep 19 11:34:02 <rgardler>	if not, think of Jedit - similar concept,
+Sep 19 11:34:12 <rgardler>	JEdit does nothing but provide a text editor and a plugin
frameowrk
+Sep 19 11:34:33 <tscherler>	(02:33:47) crossley: radical. So we cease development on
trunk?-> basically it should become a stable branch
+Sep 19 11:34:47 <tscherler>	like cocoon-2.1.x
+Sep 19 11:34:51 <rgardler>	Yes, make a 0.8 release and only do bug fixes
+Sep 19 11:35:49 <tscherler>	that would not meet "usable trunk " approach but we can
have 0.8 branch for that
+Sep 19 11:35:58 <tscherler>	better 0.8.x
+Sep 19 11:36:27 <rgardler>	I think we are in the mechanics now, that is easy to do
onlist
+Sep 19 11:36:35 <rgardler>	David, are your skins concerns addressed?
+Sep 19 11:37:20 <tscherler>	yes  crossley
+Sep 19 11:37:38 <tscherler>	are we good?
+Sep 19 11:37:40 <crossley>	as long as we can support existing users, like we did when
we 
+Sep 19 11:37:53 <crossley>	(not so fast please...)
+Sep 19 11:38:17 <crossley>	supported the change of skin names
+Sep 19 11:38:39 <crossley>	...
+Sep 19 11:38:48 <crossley>	so in the background
+Sep 19 11:39:11 <crossley>	does their site get actually transformed via  a plugin
+Sep 19 11:39:25 <crossley>	to use the new "views" machinery?
+Sep 19 11:39:40 <rgardler>	Not in my opinion
+Sep 19 11:39:48 <rgardler>	they will continue to use skins
+Sep 19 11:39:52 <tscherler>	actually we can use the skin.name prop and provide structurer
for them 
+Sep 19 11:40:03 <rgardler>	Oh, even better
+Sep 19 11:40:15 <crossley>	ah, i see.
+Sep 19 11:40:32 <tscherler>	the view.theme was tempory IMO
+Sep 19 11:40:52 <crossley>	however, we don't want to keep patching that old machinery.
+Sep 19 11:41:03 <tscherler>	no we would not
+Sep 19 11:41:15 <rgardler>	+1, skins should be deprecated as of 0.8 release
+Sep 19 11:41:26 <rgardler>	0.8 release should have a stable contracts language
+Sep 19 11:41:45 <rgardler>	intenral view code does not matter as long as contracts
are stable
+Sep 19 11:41:55 <tscherler>	+1
+Sep 19 11:42:27 <tscherler>	but we need to rewrite them before 0.8
+Sep 19 11:42:34 <tscherler>	I will do that
+Sep 19 11:42:57 <rgardler>	I have some concerns about the contract language, but they
are trivial
+Sep 19 11:43:18 <tscherler>	ok
+Sep 19 11:43:21 <rgardler>	just cleanup stuff
+Sep 19 11:43:23 <tscherler>	onlist ;-)
+Sep 19 11:43:27 <rgardler>	yes
+Sep 19 11:44:07 <tscherler>	IMO forrest:properties should go in a file for its own,
but as well onlist
+Sep 19 11:44:27 <rgardler>	Actually I have a proposal for forrest.properties
+Sep 19 11:44:37 <tscherler>	it is time to me to go to bed
+Sep 19 11:44:41 <rgardler>	we need to remove it completely in order to make Forrest
a block
+Sep 19 11:44:42 <tscherler>	keen to hear it
+Sep 19 11:44:50 <cheche>	tscherler: same here
+Sep 19 11:44:52 <rgardler>	will get the proposal onlist late next week
+Sep 19 11:45:00 <rgardler>	it's easier than we thought
+Sep 19 11:45:05 <tscherler>	ok :)
+Sep 19 11:45:15 <rgardler>	David Europe is sleeping, enjoy your day ;-0
+Sep 19 11:45:22 <crossley>	glad that you think so
+Sep 19 11:45:33 <tscherler>	crossley enjoy
+Sep 19 11:45:38 <crossley>	thanks everyone, it went well.
+Sep 19 11:45:48 <rgardler>	It was a long 1-2 hours though ;-)
+Sep 19 11:46:08 <crossley>	apply the usual multiplication factor
+Sep 19 11:46:10 <rgardler>	Thanks everyone, and good night
+Sep 19 11:46:16 <cheche>	ok.. cheers
+Sep 19 11:46:20 <cheche>	good night
+Sep 19 11:46:29 <tscherler>	cheers good night
+Sep 19 11:46:37 <--	rgardler has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]")
+Sep 19 11:46:54 <--	crossley has left #for-s2
+Sep 19 11:47:05 <--	cheche  has left #for-s2
+Sep 19 11:47:08 <--	tscherler has left #for-s2
+Sep 19 11:47:12 <--	thorsten_ has quit ("Abandonando")
+**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Sep 19 11:47:27 2005
+



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