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Subject svn commit: r289995 - /forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20050918-log.txt
Date Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:43:05 GMT
Author: crossley
Date: Sun Sep 18 15:42:58 2005
New Revision: 289995

Initial log, session still in progress.

    forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20050918-log.txt   (with props)

Added: forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20050918-log.txt
--- forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20050918-log.txt (added)
+++ forrest/events/forrest-tuesdays/20050918-log.txt Sun Sep 18 15:42:58 2005
@@ -0,0 +1,531 @@
+**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Sep 17 02:21:41 2005
+Sep 17 02:21:41 -->	You are now talking on #for-s2
+Sep 17 02:21:41 --- sets mode +n #for-s2
+Sep 17 02:21:41 --- sets mode +s #for-s2
+Sep 17 12:10:49 -->	JennyCurran (n=eggdrop@ has joined #for-s2
+Sep 18 21:42:27 ---	xley2 sets mode +n #for-s2
+Sep 18 21:45:37 ---	xley2 has changed the topic to: Decide how to approach xhtml2/views
+Sep 19 03:12:14 -->	tscherler ( has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 03:12:36 <tscherler>	hi JennyCurran
+Sep 19 03:12:41 <tscherler>	hi xley2
+Sep 19 04:16:56 -->	diwaker ( has
joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 04:17:15 <diwaker>	hey guys
+Sep 19 04:17:27 <diwaker>	am i late? have been travelling a lot so missed out the exact
+Sep 19 04:17:43 <diwaker>	can someone point out jenny's url so that i can look at the
+Sep 19 04:36:39 <diwaker>	ok so i'm early then :-)
+Sep 19 04:48:01 -->	tscherle1 ( has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 05:03:51 <--	tscherler has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
+Sep 19 05:06:14 ---	tscherle1 is now known as tscherler
+Sep 19 05:39:44 <--	diwaker has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
+Sep 19 06:38:11 -->	xley (n=crossley@apache/committer/xley) has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 06:40:01 ---	xley is now known as crossley
+Sep 19 06:47:29 ---	tscherler is now known as thorsten_walking
+Sep 19 06:54:15 -->	rgardler ( has joined
+Sep 19 06:54:32 <rgardler>	Hi Jenny ;-)
+Sep 19 06:58:06 <rgardler>	whois crossley
+Sep 19 06:59:07 <rgardler>	(sorry just playing with commands - previous entry - forgot
the slash)
+Sep 19 06:59:42 <rgardler>	I'll talk to myself for a while this may be interesting
info for those reading the logs
+Sep 19 06:59:54 <rgardler>	It appears when you do "/whois USERNAME"
+Sep 19 07:00:17 <rgardler>	that the provider id is displayed - this often has the IP
number of your machine
+Sep 19 07:00:22 <rgardler>	I don't like that
+Sep 19 07:00:25 <rgardler>	However...
+Sep 19 07:00:48 <rgardler>	If you are an Apache committer you can get a cloak that
works here on
+Sep 19 07:00:57 <rgardler>	This masks your IP number
+Sep 19 07:01:49 <rgardler>	I'm not sure how it works but see committers/docs/freenode-cloaks.txt
(i.e in committers module in CVS)
+Sep 19 07:02:20 <rgardler>	errr. that will be in SVN
+Sep 19 07:02:29 -->	tscherler ( has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 07:02:47 <rgardler>	Good evening Thorsten
+Sep 19 07:02:50 <crossley>	Hmm, i have a cloak for my primary nickname 'xley'
+Sep 19 07:02:54 <tscherler>	hi all
+Sep 19 07:03:03 <crossley>	hi
+Sep 19 07:03:08 <rgardler>	Good morning David
+Sep 19 07:03:15 ---	crossley is now known as xley
+Sep 19 07:03:19 <tscherler>	dhi ross
+Sep 19 07:03:21 <tscherler>	hi david
+Sep 19 07:03:29 <tscherler>	hi jenny jejej
+Sep 19 07:03:30 <rgardler>	Yep, that works now david - must get me one of those
+Sep 19 07:04:12 <tscherler>	one of you are using gaim?
+Sep 19 07:04:22 <xley>	cheche has a log but it doesn't seem to be working
+Sep 19 07:04:29 <xley>
+Sep 19 07:04:55 <rgardler>	I'm running a log (I think) I'm sure others are too
+Sep 19 07:05:03 <rgardler>	Thorsten - I'm not GAIM
+Sep 19 07:05:22 <xley>	yes, me too, but a live log via http was very useful last time
+Sep 19 07:05:36 <tscherler>	I am trying to get my system up running with my backup
+Sep 19 07:05:52 <tscherler>	shold I call him?
+Sep 19 07:06:04 <tscherler>	ask whether he can check?
+Sep 19 07:06:09 <xley>	yes please
+Sep 19 07:08:13 <xley>	but cheche said he might not be around at this time
+Sep 19 07:09:58 <--	thorsten_walking has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
+Sep 19 07:11:58 <tscherler>	he
+Sep 19 07:12:11 <tscherler>	he is not at home but at parrents place
+Sep 19 07:12:15 <tscherler>	without internet
+Sep 19 07:12:29 <tscherler>	he will be back in 2 hours
+Sep 19 07:12:52 <rgardler>	Then I would suggest that we proceeed and if anyone arrives
late we can send them a log via email to catch up
+Sep 19 07:12:59 <tscherler>	he gave me the access to his home computer but it seesm
the firewall blocks me
+Sep 19 07:13:25 <tscherler>	does anymore wants to try?
+Sep 19 07:13:47 <rgardler>	Probably best for you not to give login details out without
his permission
+Sep 19 07:14:19 <tscherler>	he gave me this permission as well ;-)
+Sep 19 07:14:29 <tscherler>	it is only the bot user
+Sep 19 07:14:38 <rgardler>	Oh OK, I'll try then - obviously send details via email
+Sep 19 07:14:38 <tscherler>	anyway
+Sep 19 07:14:46 <tscherler>	jupp
+Sep 19 07:15:12 <rgardler>	In the meanitme shall we proceed? it's 15 mins past start
time now
+Sep 19 07:15:52 -->	twilliams_ ( has
joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 07:16:05 <tscherler>	give me a moment
+Sep 19 07:16:08 <rgardler>	Heh, Tim - good timing - you missed nothing yet
+Sep 19 07:16:48 <twilliams_>	thanks, sorry for the tardiness - wife's fault;)
+Sep 19 07:18:03 <rgardler>	I didn't mean "good timing" in the "your late sense" but
because you arrived just as I said "shall we start"
+Sep 19 07:18:18 <twilliams_>	does jenny have a url yet?
+Sep 19 07:18:34 <rgardler>	Yes, but she seems to be aslepp
+Sep 19 07:18:44 <rgardler>
+Sep 19 07:19:08 <twilliams_>	yeah, i heard the right way...
+Sep 19 07:19:13 <tscherler>	rgardler you have mail
+Sep 19 07:19:27 <rgardler>	We said we would mail logs to late comers, however, all
you have missed is that discussion and a few other "what shall we do about logs" related scomments
+Sep 19 07:20:59 <rgardler>	I can't get Jenny to open the door either - shall we proceed
with the "send log by email" solution?
+Sep 19 07:21:02 <twilliams_>	ok, someone's loggin it locally in cause jenny isn't really
+Sep 19 07:21:09 <rgardler>	Yes
+Sep 19 07:21:15 <twilliams_>	yeah, don't worry about it for me though
+Sep 19 07:22:17 <rgardler>	OK - so I'll start as I promised I would: "What do we intend
to gain from using XHTML2 in core?"
+Sep 19 07:22:26 <tscherler>	need to restart my client back in   a second
+Sep 19 07:22:33 <tscherler>	please one more moment
+Sep 19 07:22:37 <--	tscherler has quit ("Download Gaim:")
+Sep 19 07:22:41 <rgardler>	OK, hold those answers...
+Sep 19 07:23:06 <xley>	the sun is rising here
+Sep 19 07:23:15 <rgardler>	So you'll be waking up now then?
+Sep 19 07:23:26 <xley>	no coffee yet
+Sep 19 07:23:43 <rgardler>	GO get Coffeee, the sun is risin you must toast the day
+Sep 19 07:24:05 -->	tscherler ( has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 07:24:07 <rgardler>	I'm going for a whiskey while Thorsten is rebooting
+Sep 19 07:24:08 <tscherler>	back
+Sep 19 07:24:14 <tscherler>	jeje
+Sep 19 07:24:15 <twilliams_>	toast... ahh... shall i begin the beer conversation again?
+Sep 19 07:24:17 <tscherler>	too late
+Sep 19 07:24:37 ---	xley is now known as crossley
+Sep 19 07:25:28 <crossley>	coffee can wait. Are we ready now?
+Sep 19 07:25:35 <rgardler>	I'm ready
+Sep 19 07:25:49 -->	tscherle1 ( has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 07:26:05 <rgardler>	Wow there's too of him, no wonder he gets so much done
+Sep 19 07:26:05 <tscherle1> 
+Sep 19 07:26:14 <tscherle1>	:)
+Sep 19 07:26:30 <tscherle1>	just getting my system back
+Sep 19 07:26:48 <tscherle1>	btw I fall in love with rsync
+Sep 19 07:26:50 <tscherle1>	;-)
+Sep 19 07:27:10 <tscherle1>	it so nice getting the backup onto my system again
+Sep 19 07:28:16 <rgardler>	so does that mean you are ready Thorsten?
+Sep 19 07:28:22 <tscherle1>	:)
+Sep 19 07:28:27 <tscherle1>	yeah
+Sep 19 07:28:37 <rgardler>	OK - so I'll start as I promised I would: "What do we intend
to gain from using XHTML2 in core?"
+Sep 19 07:29:55 <twilliams_>	i don't know
+Sep 19 07:30:24 <tscherle1>	where we want to apply xhtml2?
+Sep 19 07:30:36 <tscherle1>	Should the tab-* and menu-* as well output xhtml2? 
+Sep 19 07:31:12 <twilliams_>	and then have yet another transform to do plain html?
+Sep 19 07:31:20 <crossley>	wait, ross that questionis different from the one you wanted
to start with
+Sep 19 07:31:28 <crossley>	looking for you mail ...
+Sep 19 07:31:36 <rgardler>	Oooops sorry... I was going from memory
+Sep 19 07:32:00 <rgardler>	Thorsten, I think that is a different issue - that is more
about *how*, first I want to understand *why* (I know my why, but not yours)
+Sep 19 07:32:26 <crossley>	"What are we trying to achieve by using XHMTL2 in the core?"
+Sep 19 07:32:32 <tscherle1>	to answer why we have to define where IMO
+Sep 19 07:32:43 <crossley>	that was Ross' first question
+Sep 19 07:32:45 <tscherle1>	actually I do not know
+Sep 19 07:33:04 <tscherle1>	I thought that we want to base our xdocs on xhtml2
+Sep 19 07:33:05 <twilliams_>	that's how i interpreted what he just asked
+Sep 19 07:33:36 <tscherle1>	that make xhtml2 as input
+Sep 19 07:33:54 <crossley>	thorsten, is that all ?
+Sep 19 07:33:58 <rgardler>	only input?
+Sep 19 07:34:03 <tscherle1>	yes
+Sep 19 07:34:05 <tscherle1>	IMO
+Sep 19 07:34:07 <tscherle1>	yes
+Sep 19 07:34:16 <tscherle1>	all internal is xml
+Sep 19 07:34:28 <rgardler>	David/Tim - any thoughts before I tell you mine
+Sep 19 07:35:03 <twilliams_>	i don't know *why* personally.. but i gather that we're
talking a peer xml format to xdoc rather than an input
+Sep 19 07:35:05 <crossley>	i have thoughts and been reading back mail to try to find
why NKB thought so
+Sep 19 07:35:44 <crossley>	i wait until Tim finished
+Sep 19 07:35:47 <twilliams_>	i suppose there's the obvious, so as not to maintain our
own dtd
+Sep 19 07:35:55 <rgardler>	Tim, can you explain what you mean by "peer XML format to
XDoc rather than input"?
+Sep 19 07:36:36 <tscherle1>	yes please
+Sep 19 07:36:49 <twilliams_>	i mean that we want it internally, rather than we normalizing
to xdoc
+Sep 19 07:36:52 <twilliams_>	in other words...
+Sep 19 07:37:07 <twilliams_>	we don't want xhtml2->xdoc->html/pdf/etc
+Sep 19 07:37:15 <twilliams_>	we do want xhtml2->html/pdf/etc
+Sep 19 07:38:00 <rgardler>	OK, I understand what you mean (I'm avoiding making comments
for now, I'm in listening mode - which is highly unusual for me ;-)
+Sep 19 07:38:09 <rgardler>	David...?
+Sep 19 07:38:21 <crossley>	okay ...
+Sep 19 07:38:43 <crossley>	1) xdoc is a non-standard format.
+Sep 19 07:39:02 <crossley>	i found this email from Stefano:
+Sep 19 07:39:15 <crossley>
+Sep 19 07:39:40 <crossley>	2) Easier for tools like DocBook to just generate XHTML
and we just use that, rather than then convert to xdoc.
+Sep 19 07:40:02 <crossley>	3) Easier validation of internal format: RELAX NG
+Sep 19 07:40:53 <crossley>	4) Nicola Ken seemed adamant to do it, and that is good
enough for me (wish he was here)
+Sep 19 07:41:32 <crossley>	Those four are all that i can think of at the moment. Over
to you ...
+Sep 19 07:41:50 <rgardler>	Cooo, thanks all, any more comments before I speak up?
+Sep 19 07:41:57 <rgardler>	(coool, that is ;-)
+Sep 19 07:42:06 <rgardler>	or even cool...
+Sep 19 07:42:48 <rgardler>	OK, I too have been reading up in the archives
+Sep 19 07:43:07 <rgardler>	I was interested to find that this has been discussed for
over three years now...
+Sep 19 07:43:29 <rgardler>	As David said NKB was the original proponent (good enough
to go for then...)
+Sep 19 07:43:42 <rgardler>	I was also an early "believer"
+Sep 19 07:43:56 <rgardler>	We fought hard to gain consensus and then neither of us
did it...
+Sep 19 07:44:10 <rgardler>	All the reasons have been given so far
+Sep 19 07:44:17 <rgardler>	no need to maintain DTD
+Sep 19 07:44:29 <rgardler>	Easier integration of editors (so input is agreed)
+Sep 19 07:44:45 <rgardler>	we are not using a non-stanrard format (which scares users)
+Sep 19 07:44:58 <rgardler>	XHTML2 is designed to be extensible
+Sep 19 07:45:04 <rgardler>	easier to validate
+Sep 19 07:45:10 <rgardler>	However, there is one more...
+Sep 19 07:45:20 <rgardler>	Tim touched on it in his email...
+Sep 19 07:45:36 <rgardler>	Lets think of the interface to Forrest
+Sep 19 07:45:52 <rgardler>	On the input side we have XDoc and we are in agreement to
replace this wtih XHTML2
+Sep 19 07:46:01 <rgardler>	However, on the output side we have HTML
+Sep 19 07:46:13 <rgardler>	So we have *two* interfaces
+Sep 19 07:46:19 <rgardler>	when one will do
+Sep 19 07:46:29 <rgardler>	I say we use XHTML2 on input *and* output
+Sep 19 07:46:36 <rgardler>	Standardise our interfaces
+Sep 19 07:46:47 <rgardler>	(pausing for comments)
+Sep 19 07:48:21 <rgardler>	No comments? (from here on in I'll stop if someone types
+Sep 19 07:48:33 <rgardler>	What do we gain by doing this?
+Sep 19 07:48:34 <crossley>	agreement from me. Sounds like xhtml2 everywhere
+Sep 19 07:48:51 <crossley>	keep going Ross
+Sep 19 07:48:55 <twilliams_>	i don't get how that's different i suppose
+Sep 19 07:49:02 <twilliams_>	the "output" i mean
+Sep 19 07:49:22 <rgardler>	Currently when we produce a different output format
+Sep 19 07:49:27 <rgardler>	e.g. PDF
+Sep 19 07:49:39 <rgardler>	we have a completely separate process
+Sep 19 07:49:54 <rgardler>	that is, we output FO rather than HTML
+Sep 19 07:50:08 <rgardler>	But it still goes through the document2html transformer
+Sep 19 07:50:18 <rgardler>	That is an unnecessary step
+Sep 19 07:50:30 <rgardler>	we should go src->XHTML2->FO
+Sep 19 07:50:57 <rgardler>	As has been said, view *just* replace the last stage of
the skinning process
+Sep 19 07:51:04 <rgardler>	I think this is missing a trick
+Sep 19 07:51:27 <rgardler>	Themes replace the last stage of skinnnig, views are about
structure and content not about rendering
+Sep 19 07:51:34 <tscherler>	see my recent mail to this
+Sep 19 07:51:50 <rgardler>	Just goinng to re-read it...
+Sep 19 07:52:08 <tscherler>	to throw in some remarks
+Sep 19 07:52:44 <tscherler>	(22:50:47) rgardler: we should go src->XHTML2->FO
-> whith all above said would be xhtml2-fo
+Sep 19 07:52:55 <tscherler>	because src = xhtml2
+Sep 19 07:53:27 <rgardler>	amazon ECS -> XHTML2 -> FO
+Sep 19 07:53:33 <twilliams_>	i took src to be via an input plugin
+Sep 19 07:53:39 <rgardler>	(for example of none XHTML2 input)
+Sep 19 07:54:36 <tscherler>	22:46:45) rgardler: I say we use XHTML2 on input *and*
output -> we have internal yes and all output plugins have to cope with xhtml2 but we still
need xhtml as output
+Sep 19 07:55:02 <tscherler>	(22:53:49) twilliams_: i took src to be via an input plugin->
me too
+Sep 19 07:55:43 <tscherler>	src is the internal format produced by an input plugin
+Sep 19 07:56:10 <tscherler>	IMO we still need a subset of element and how we want to
render them
+Sep 19 07:56:18 <rgardler>	Why do we need XHTML2 as an ouput from core?
+Sep 19 07:56:29 <tscherler>	that would make up our internal format
+Sep 19 07:56:30 <rgardler>	sorry XHTML as an output from core
+Sep 19 07:56:48 <tscherler>	for the output plugins, or not?
+Sep 19 07:57:03 <tscherler>	we need an internal format
+Sep 19 07:57:18 <tscherler>	an interface for output plugins
+Sep 19 07:57:44 <rgardler>	Thosten, I'm confused - are you saying XHTML should be the
interface for output plugins?
+Sep 19 07:58:06 <tscherler>	add the 2 sorry ;-)
+Sep 19 07:58:15 <rgardler>	phew... ;-)
+Sep 19 07:59:02 <tscherler>	(22:56:46) rgardler: sorry XHTML as an output from core
-> but you said you only want xhtml2, or not?
+Sep 19 07:59:26 <rgardler>	(see my correct in the next line)
+Sep 19 07:59:47 <rgardler>	OK, so we need a "subset of elements" - we have that, we
are not using *all* of XHTML2, only the equivalents of XDoc, that is our subset
+Sep 19 07:59:59 <tscherler>	yes
+Sep 19 08:00:09 <rgardler>	I think I missed your point then...
+Sep 19 08:00:53 <tscherler>	actually what do we need to process?
+Sep 19 08:01:00 <tscherler>	the main thing is the doc
+Sep 19 08:01:07 <tscherler>	the rest is additional
+Sep 19 08:01:20 <tscherler>	and IMO even the doc is additional
+Sep 19 08:01:32 <tscherle1>	"Actually there
+Sep 19 08:01:32 <tscherle1>	is no default pm anymore. You get what your view requests!
+Sep 19 08:01:57 <crossley>	what is a "pm"?
+Sep 19 08:02:08 <tscherler>	presentation model
+Sep 19 08:02:50 <tscherler>	our aggregate of menu-*; tab-*; body-*, ...
+Sep 19 08:04:08 <tscherler>	I am checkin in my stuff where I started to show what I
+Sep 19 08:04:11 <tscherler>	one moment
+Sep 19 08:04:19 <crossley>	that is all content, isn't it?
+Sep 19 08:04:38 <tscherler>	yes and no
+Sep 19 08:04:40 <tscherler>	IMO
+Sep 19 08:04:48 <tscherler>	navigation is meta-data
+Sep 19 08:05:37 <tscherler>	it says something about the request in the current project
+Sep 19 08:06:11 <rgardler>	I disagree, navigation says nothing about the *content*
it is meta-data but not to the content, it is meta-data to the site, therefore it is content
in the rendered page
+Sep 19 08:07:04 <rgardler>	Anyway, more importantly (for me): I've read Thorstens mail
about 5 times now, and I really can't see the difference between what he is suggesting and
what I am suggesting, can anyone enlighten me?
+Sep 19 08:09:13 <crossley>	which mail? ... but i doubt that lil old me will be able
to enlighten you guys.
+Sep 19 08:09:45 <tscherle1>
+Sep 19 08:10:24 <tscherle1>	   Asunto:    Re: [Proposal] Design meeting focus     Fecha:
   Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:15:15 +0200   
+Sep 19 08:11:09 <tscherler>	(23:06:27) rgardler: I disagree, navigation says nothing
about the *content* it is meta-data but not to the content, it is meta-data to the site, therefore
it is content in the rendered page -> that is exactly what I wrote -> it says something
about the request in the current project
+Sep 19 08:12:23 <twilliams_>	it seems to me you're both saying the same thing:
+Sep 19 08:12:32 <tscherler>	+1
+Sep 19 08:12:34 <tscherler>	;-)
+Sep 19 08:12:40 <twilliams_>	o) external formats should normalize to xhtml2
+Sep 19 08:12:48 <rgardler>	SO what the hell are we discussing ;-) Time for a beer
+Sep 19 08:13:16 <twilliams_>	o) xhtml2 will be the source for other outputs (ie, it
will be straight to html, pdf, etc. from xhtml2)
+Sep 19 08:13:34 <twilliams_>	o) and all "pieces" or contracts will be addressable
+Sep 19 08:13:46 <tscherler>	+1
+Sep 19 08:13:47 <twilliams_>	how to get it done
+Sep 19 08:13:56 <tscherler>	views ;-)
+Sep 19 08:14:06 <rgardler>	Tim, Godd summary of what I said in a much more verbose
way ;-)
+Sep 19 08:14:26 <rgardler>	(errr... "good summary"
+Sep 19 08:14:37 <tscherler>	ross you and I should tell tim what we think and he summarize
+Sep 19 08:14:54 <rgardler>	+10000
+Sep 19 08:15:01 <rgardler>	OK, so let me move to mysecond question: "what do we gain
from doing a partial move to XHTML2 in core"?
+Sep 19 08:15:13 <rgardler>	(i.e. input side only)
+Sep 19 08:15:52 <twilliams_>	i wasn't suggesting *that* partial solution
+Sep 19 08:16:16 *	crossley goes to get coffee, back in a tick
+Sep 19 08:16:24 <rgardler>	How do you see your suggestion being different?
+Sep 19 08:16:25 <tscherler>	(22:38:59) crossley: 1) xdoc is a non-standard format.
-> we have a standard format
+Sep 19 08:16:56 <twilliams_>	it's not a Standard format though (a la XHTML2, docbook,
+Sep 19 08:17:41 <tscherler>	(23:17:12) twilliams_: it's not a Standard format though
(a la XHTML2, docbook, dita->???
+Sep 19 08:18:01 <tscherler>	I thought xhtml2 should come out of a input plugin?
+Sep 19 08:18:12 <twilliams_>	it's not maintained by a standards body
+Sep 19 08:18:38 <tscherler>	what do you mean
+Sep 19 08:18:54 <twilliams_>	huh? i thought that's what we just went through
+Sep 19 08:19:37 <twilliams_>	w3c, oasis, etc. maintain standards our documentv2whatever
is maintained as best i can tell by david.. a consortium of one;)
+Sep 19 08:20:00 <tscherler>	jeje
+Sep 19 08:20:11 <rgardler>	:-) - pretty close to reality
+Sep 19 08:20:50 <tscherler>	so we nned
+Sep 19 08:20:50 <rgardler>	So, Thorsten, I missed your point again (back to you soon
+Sep 19 08:21:01 <tscherler>	which point?
+Sep 19 08:21:15 <rgardler>	(22:38:59) crossley: 1) xdoc is a non-standard format. ->
we have a standard format
+Sep 19 08:21:28 <tscherler>	(23:15:18) rgardler: OK, so let me move to mysecond question:
"what do we gain from doing a partial move to XHTML2 in core"?
+Sep 19 08:21:34 <tscherler>	;-)
+Sep 19 08:21:48 <tscherler>	now I se
+Sep 19 08:21:58 <rgardler>	Ah... tha's obvious now - not used to you being succint
+Sep 19 08:22:02 <tscherler>	should be we *will* gain a standard input
+Sep 19 08:22:32 <rgardler>	OK, any other gains?
+Sep 19 08:22:33 <twilliams_>	ahhh... shucks... and you made me go through that for
+Sep 19 08:22:48 <tscherler>	sorry
+Sep 19 08:22:57 <tscherler>	:(
+Sep 19 08:23:33 <rgardler>	(we need a babel fish so we can all talk in our native tongue)
+Sep 19 08:24:03 <twilliams_>	i am... still goofing it up i suppose;)
+Sep 19 08:24:30 <tscherler>	OT did you see hitchikers guide to the galaxy? We need
the fish
+Sep 19 08:24:43 <rgardler>	Yeah, it was called a "babel fish" :-)
+Sep 19 08:24:58 <tscherler>	:) was not sure you meant that ;-)
+Sep 19 08:25:06 <tscherler>	+1
+Sep 19 08:25:27 <tscherler>	ok david
+Sep 19 08:25:39 <crossley>	what?
+Sep 19 08:25:40 <tscherler>	your are still alive crossley?
+Sep 19 08:25:47 <crossley>	just
+Sep 19 08:25:49 <tscherler>	your thoughts?
+Sep 19 08:26:00 <crossley>	about what sorry
+Sep 19 08:26:07 <rgardler>	Drink the coffee man!
+Sep 19 08:26:19 <rgardler>	;-)
+Sep 19 08:26:41 <crossley>	still brewing
+Sep 19 08:26:56 <rgardler>	Ahhh. the real stuff, you make me proud
+Sep 19 08:27:05 <crossley>	of course
+Sep 19 08:28:09 <rgardler>	I'm just looking through the list of things we gain from
+Sep 19 08:28:33 <rgardler>	In answer to the what do we get in a partial solution is
"everything except a standardised interface"
+Sep 19 08:28:47 <rgardler>	on the input *and* output that is
+Sep 19 08:29:10 <rgardler>	Tim, you made some valid points in your proposal about doing
too much in one go
+Sep 19 08:29:35 <rgardler>	Given that Thorsten and I seem to agree (after a long disagreement)
would you like to make any comments relating to that
+Sep 19 08:30:07 <tscherler>	(23:29:52) rgardler: Given that Thorsten and I seem to
agree (after a long disagreement) -> actually I reckon we always agreed 
+Sep 19 08:30:16 <tscherler>	only the way how to 
+Sep 19 08:30:24 <twilliams_>	i've not disagreed with the goal, just the approach
+Sep 19 08:30:28 <tscherler>	that is point odf discussion
+Sep 19 08:30:34 <tscherler>	me too
+Sep 19 08:30:51 <twilliams_>	what you called "partial" i'm calling the first step of
a "staged" solution
+Sep 19 08:31:08 <twilliams_>	because i think we can safely do alot of this now
+Sep 19 08:31:32 <twilliams_>	whereas, i think the views implementation isn't stable
enough to start building in some of this
+Sep 19 08:31:48 <tscherler>	...and it is much work. All input plugins have now produce
+Sep 19 08:31:56 <twilliams_>	and.. to the extent possible it makes sense to allow each
to mature in its own way
+Sep 19 08:32:36 <twilliams_>	and there's the obvious pragmatic concerns about everyone
needing to make fairly siginificant changes to what comes down to a handful of files
+Sep 19 08:32:51 <tscherler>	(23:31:48) twilliams_: whereas, i think the views implementation
isn't stable enough to start building in some of this -> actually I disagree
+Sep 19 08:33:20 <rgardler>	(lets not get diverted by the stability discussion - it's
a different issue)
+Sep 19 08:33:28 <tscherler>	the problem I see is that making them stable means that
more active devs around them
+Sep 19 08:34:15 <tscherler>	anyway
+Sep 19 08:34:16 <twilliams_>	views are pretty stable functionally... 
+Sep 19 08:34:32 <tscherler>	...but?
+Sep 19 08:34:32 <twilliams_>	the reason i bring it up is the implementation of them
may not be
+Sep 19 08:34:56 <twilliams_>	and the changes that would be necessary are dependent
on the implementation
+Sep 19 08:35:24 <rgardler>	Tim, there is no need for all plugins to switch over to
XHTML2 at the same time given my approach - if they produce XDoc we simply pipe them into
an XDoc input plugin which converts to XHTML2
+Sep 19 08:35:43 <twilliams_>	i was going to say that
+Sep 19 08:35:55 <twilliams_>	that was thorsten, but i got side-tracked
+Sep 19 08:36:32 <twilliams_>	i think there is agreement on the input side 
+Sep 19 08:36:40 <rgardler>	OK
+Sep 19 08:36:41 <twilliams_>	at least from me
+Sep 19 08:37:03 <rgardler>	Lets take a vote, are we in agreement that contracts need
to accept XHTML2 as input?
+Sep 19 08:37:05 <rgardler>	+1 from me
+Sep 19 08:37:11 <rgardler>	(it's an informal vote)
+Sep 19 08:38:07 <twilliams_>	i meant the input side of *forrest*, not necessarily the
input of contracts
+Sep 19 08:38:28 <twilliams_>	as in, "normalize to xhtml2"
+Sep 19 08:39:00 <rgardler>	Yea, and since views are on the input side (see Thorstens
and my mails) that means contracts need to be XHTML2
+Sep 19 08:39:13 <tscherle1>	no 
+Sep 19 08:39:24 <rgardler>	Ahhh.... I thought we agreed that, please expand
+Sep 19 08:39:25 <tscherle1>	I never said this
+Sep 19 08:39:33 <tscherle1>	Yea, and since views are on the input side (see Thorstens
and my mails) that means contracts need to be XHTML2
+Sep 19 08:39:53 <tscherle1>	does not matter
+Sep 19 08:40:06 <tscherle1>	yes they need to accept xhtml2
+Sep 19 08:40:09 <tscherle1>	+1
+Sep 19 08:40:41 <rgardler>	(David, you invented that Babel fish yet?)
+Sep 19 08:40:45 <tscherle1>	they conneting the input plugins but they are in core but
like I set does not matter ;-)
+Sep 19 08:41:11 <crossley>	its not working
+Sep 19 08:41:19 <rgardler>	OK, I see what you mean I agree with your thought and that
for this topic it does not matter
+Sep 19 08:41:29 <rgardler>	(David, give it Coffee)
+Sep 19 08:41:33 <crossley>	perhaps inserted back-to-front
+Sep 19 08:41:35 <twilliams_>
+Sep 19 08:41:49 <rgardler>	(it is in your ear right?)
+Sep 19 08:42:17 <rgardler>	(maybe I should go to school and actually learn another
language that might help)
+Sep 19 08:42:38 <twilliams_>	Ich denke, daß Thorsten recht ist
+Sep 19 08:42:49 <tscherler>	:)
+Sep 19 08:42:50 <tscherler>	lol
+Sep 19 08:42:58 <tscherler>	recht hat ;-)
+Sep 19 08:44:24 <tscherler>	ok how do we implement it?
+Sep 19 08:44:29 <rgardler>	Where were we?
+Sep 19 08:44:43 <rgardler>	Oh yeah...tscherler	ok how do we implement it?
+Sep 19 08:45:14 <tscherler>	we have now the xhtml2 plugin
+Sep 19 08:45:15 <rgardler>	Tim, can you explain why you think the approach in the XHTML2
plugin is incorrect
+Sep 19 08:46:15 <twilliams_>	i haven't done very well at it so far
+Sep 19 08:46:24 <rgardler>	:-(
+Sep 19 08:46:41 <rgardler>	I understand your point about not taking on too much, my
problem is that I don't see why it is more work
+Sep 19 08:47:30 <twilliams_>	say we get down this path and two weeks from now we decide
that much of the views stuff should be in POJO
+Sep 19 08:47:44 <twilliams_>	and that changes the way contracts are written
+Sep 19 08:47:51 <twilliams_>	or templates are written
+Sep 19 08:48:21 <twilliams_>	why not just let views progress to where we want them
to be independently instead of tying the two together
+Sep 19 08:48:45 <rgardler>	Aha!!!! it clicked
+Sep 19 08:48:49 <twilliams_>	in other words, if we go down the current plugin's path,
thorsten and crew will need to start also developing views in that plugin
+Sep 19 08:49:17 <twilliams_>	then we end up with a plugin that is essentially a replacement
for forrest  because it's grown so huge 
+Sep 19 08:49:30 <twilliams_>	that *everything* and the kitchen sink has to be dragged
+Sep 19 08:50:16 <rgardler>	When I wrote the mail describing the approach...
+Sep 19 08:50:38 <rgardler>	I started off saying that this is the first step towards
moving from an pre-release Forrest to a 1.0 Forrest
+Sep 19 08:51:16 <rgardler>	I took it out because I didn't want to reawaken the concerns
that the XHTML2 plugin is doing too much in one go - it is not
+Sep 19 08:51:48 <rgardler>	My intention is *only* to make the contracts take XHTML2
as input - something we are agreed on, and produce XHTML2 as output (I think we agreed that)
+Sep 19 08:52:16 <rgardler>	The XML defining the contracts may change, but that is easy
to sort out with a text editor
+Sep 19 08:52:21 <rgardler>	and a few scripts
+Sep 19 08:52:36 <tscherler>	stop
+Sep 19 08:52:45 <tscherler>	tim thx
+Sep 19 08:52:49 <rgardler>	OK
+Sep 19 08:52:55 <tscherler>	you said so many true thing
+Sep 19 08:53:30 <tscherler>	I felt *guilty* not applying my reccent changes to xhtml2
+Sep 19 08:53:43 <tscherler>	but I can not do that
+Sep 19 08:53:48 <tscherler>	anyway
+Sep 19 08:54:12 <tscherler>	contracts are changed within no time
+Sep 19 08:54:27 <tscherler>	it does not matter which format is coming in
+Sep 19 08:54:45 <tscherler>	even we can have two contracts for different format
+Sep 19 08:55:22 <tscherler>	xhtml2 plugin should provide the document as xhtml2
+Sep 19 08:55:33 <tscherler>	that's it
+Sep 19 08:56:04 <tscherler>	we do not need views in the xhtml2 for that
+Sep 19 08:56:30 <tscherler>	it is a plugin
+Sep 19 08:57:22 <crossley>	you saying that "views" are one plugin?
+Sep 19 08:58:32 <twilliams_>	who?  i haven't.  i think they can't be only for practical
+Sep 19 08:59:31 <rgardler>	In my opinion: The *core* part of views is a single plugin,
what we now call the structurer, the contracts are another plugin (or plugins) and themes
are another
+Sep 19 09:00:10 <crossley>	tscherler just said "it is a plugin" ... i wondered what
"it" meant.
+Sep 19 09:00:10 <twilliams_>	ok
+Sep 19 09:00:22 <twilliams_>	he meant the *new* one
+Sep 19 09:00:26 <twilliams_>	xhtml2 plugin
+Sep 19 09:00:38 <crossley>	ah thanks
+Sep 19 09:00:46 <rgardler>	So, Thorsten, your conclusion please
+Sep 19 09:05:08 <twilliams_>	ummm... thorsten... you're on.... take the stage please...;)
+Sep 19 09:07:19 -->	thorsten_ ( has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 09:07:25 <thorsten_>	argh
+Sep 19 09:07:38 <thorsten_>	wha d I meiss
+Sep 19 09:07:52 <thorsten_>	I got kick out and I am on a new client
+Sep 19 09:08:01 <thorsten_>	hello
+Sep 19 09:08:08 <thorsten_>	somebody there=
+Sep 19 09:08:15 <twilliams_>	rgardler So, Thorsten, your conclusion please
+Sep 19 09:08:29 <crossley>	yes we were waiting for you - you didn't miss anything
+Sep 19 09:08:35 <thorsten_>	when I got cut off?
+Sep 19 09:08:57 <twilliams_>	ok, i tried to make a funny
+Sep 19 09:09:09 <twilliams_>	twilliams_: ummm... thorsten... you're on.... take the
stage please...;)
+Sep 19 09:09:50 <thorsten_>	what is the last sentence?
+Sep 19 09:09:55 <twilliams_>	we all felt like you were "leading up to a big conclusion"
I suppose
+Sep 19 09:10:07 <thorsten_>	sorry my client trashed
+Sep 19 09:10:17 <twilliams_>	tscherler we do not need views in the xhtml2 for that
+Sep 19 09:10:17 <twilliams_>	tscherler it is a plugin
+Sep 19 09:10:28 <thorsten_>	ok
+Sep 19 09:10:28 <twilliams_>	that's where you left off
+Sep 19 09:10:35 <crossley>	thorsten this is the last thing that Ross said ...
+Sep 19 09:10:53 <crossley>	In my opinion: The *core* part of views is a single plugin,
what we now call the structurer, the contracts are another plugin (or plugins) and themes
are another
+Sep 19 09:11:08 <crossley>	... So, Thorsten, your conclusion please
+Sep 19 09:11:13 <crossley>	end Ross
+Sep 19 09:11:27 <twilliams_>	he was answering a question from david with that though
+Sep 19 09:12:01 <thorsten_>	conclusion xhmtl2 should provide xhtml2 and not incooperate
+Sep 19 09:12:07 <thorsten_>	to ross
+Sep 19 09:12:16 <thorsten_>	the contracts are another plugin (or plugins) and themes
are another -> yes
+Sep 19 09:12:33 <thorsten_>	but you showed me that their can be used before ;-)
+Sep 19 09:12:36 <thorsten_>	in the core
+Sep 19 09:12:41 <thorsten_>	with the resume stuff
+Sep 19 09:13:35 <rgardler>	thorsten_	conclusion xhmtl2 should provide xhtml2 and not
incooperate views -> Yes, see my mails to you onlist in which I explain...
+Sep 19 09:13:54 <thorsten_>	you are saying their are a fraework
+Sep 19 09:14:06 <thorsten_>	I say we do not a framework for that
+Sep 19 09:14:19 <thorsten_>	views *are* already the frame work
+Sep 19 09:14:22 <thorsten_>	;-)
+Sep 19 09:14:57 <rgardler>	I agree. The comment was not related to what you were saying
but clarifying something in response to a question David asked, you'll see it in the logs,
but we are in agreement ;-)
+Sep 19 09:15:16 <rgardler>	thorsten_ conclusion xhmtl2 should provide xhtml2 and not
incooperate views -> Yes, see my mails to you onlist in which I explain...
+Sep 19 09:15:36 <rgardler>	the only reason for structurer.xmap is that I needed to
get ris of the *.page matcher
+Sep 19 09:15:57 <--	tscherle1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
+Sep 19 09:16:00 <rgardler>	You had already stated this was your intention and I said
that once this was sorted out we could "rip out structurer.xmap"
+Sep 19 09:16:09 <thorsten_>	Iok
+Sep 19 09:16:13 <rgardler>	Bugger and we are so close to gettin gthis sorted!
+Sep 19 09:16:14 <--	tscherler has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
+Sep 19 09:16:22 <rgardler>	I'll mail him the last part of the log
+Sep 19 09:17:44 <crossley>	thorsten ... tell us when you are back and ready.
+Sep 19 09:18:00 -->	tscherler ( has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 09:18:15 <rgardler>	David, I know you don't like Cricket much but, what is the
national mood regarding the Ashes?
+Sep 19 09:18:39 <rgardler>	(Thorsten I mailed you the last part of the log from when
you got kicked first time, let us know when you caugt up)
+Sep 19 09:18:53 -->	cheche (n=cheche@ has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 09:19:14 <tscherler>	cheers ross
+Sep 19 09:19:18 <tscherler>	ok it
+Sep 19 09:19:26 <tscherler>	means the xhtml2 plugin
+Sep 19 09:19:26 <--	JennyCurran has quit (Remote closed the connection)
+Sep 19 09:19:41 <rgardler>	(Jenny woke up and didn't like the look of us)
+Sep 19 09:19:45 <tscherler>	we can add it to the project and use it instead of any
other src
+Sep 19 09:19:47 <tscherler>	right?
+Sep 19 09:19:50 -->	JennyCurran (n=eggdrop@ has joined #for-s2
+Sep 19 09:20:01 <tscherler>	cheers cheche
+Sep 19 09:20:09 <rgardler>	Thanks Cheche
+Sep 19 09:20:22 <cheche>	hi all!
+Sep 19 09:20:29 <cheche>	sorry about JennyCurran
+Sep 19 09:20:39 <rgardler>	Man she is lazy!
+Sep 19 09:20:41 <cheche>	I do not know what is wrong...
+Sep 19 09:20:47 <crossley>	hi cheche glad you could make it
+Sep 19 09:21:06 <rgardler>	Thorsten - yes :-)
+Sep 19 09:22:35 <crossley>	:-) this conversation needs to regroup.
+Sep 19 09:22:46 <tscherler>	please go ahead
+Sep 19 09:22:51 <crossley>	where were we?
+Sep 19 09:23:00 <rgardler>	Let me try...
+Sep 19 09:23:04 <twilliams_>	lost and confused?
+Sep 19 09:23:11 <twilliams_>	;)
+Sep 19 09:23:39 <rgardler>	I think Thorsten and I were just agreeing that the goal
of the XHTML2 plugin is just to create contracts that are XHMTL2 aware
+Sep 19 09:23:44 <rgardler>	Nothing more
+Sep 19 09:23:50 <rgardler>	Is that right Thorsten?
+Sep 19 09:23:52 <crossley>	after ross tries i also have some questions about "contracts"

+Sep 19 09:25:26 <tscherler>	ross IMO their should only output document2xhmtl2
+Sep 19 09:25:29 <tscherler>	not mor
+Sep 19 09:25:48 <tscherler>	the rest should be done in another plugin
+Sep 19 09:26:35 <tscherler>	remeber you said
+Sep 19 09:26:38 <tscherler>	the contracts are another plugin (or plugins) and 
+Sep 19 09:27:01 <tscherler>	they have to be detached of the xhtml2 plugin IMO
+Sep 19 09:27:06 <rgardler>	Yes... input plugin  (contracts -> )  -> core (XHTML2)
-> outputput plugin (HTML) -> Theme (CSS)
+Sep 19 09:27:11 <cheche>	fixed!
+Sep 19 09:27:22 <rgardler>	Cheers cheche
+Sep 19 09:27:23 <tscherler>	:)
+Sep 19 09:27:24 <tscherler>	cheers
+Sep 19 09:27:51 <tscherler>	input->contracts(core)->ourput
+Sep 19 09:28:22 <tscherler>	where output has as well contracts
+Sep 19 09:28:25 <tscherler>	so
+Sep 19 09:29:08 <tscherler>	input->xhmtl2/core (contracts)->output(contracts)
+Sep 19 09:29:32 <rgardler>	lets look at one side at a time...
+Sep 19 09:29:45 <crossley>	can i put my bit ...
+Sep 19 09:29:51 <crossley>	it relates
+Sep 19 09:29:51 <tscherler>	output contracts make the transformation from xhtml2 to
e.g. fo or html
+Sep 19 09:29:57 <rgardler>	contracts(core) - they are used in core, they may be provided
by an input plugin though, e.g. resume plugin has contracts that convert from resume DTD to
+Sep 19 09:29:58 <tscherler>	go ahead
+Sep 19 09:30:16 <rgardler>	GO ahead david
+Sep 19 09:30:17 <crossley>	I read somewhere else that our "contracts" not only define
+Sep 19 09:30:30 <crossley>	but also where it is placed.
+Sep 19 09:30:52 <crossley>	this seems to conflict with Ross' emai
+Sep 19 09:30:54 <crossley>	...
+Sep 19 09:31:05 <crossley>	'What does "XHTML2 as an internal document format" mean?'
+Sep 19 09:31:15 <crossley>
+Sep 19 09:31:36 <rgardler>	I think that is an *old* definition =. In my opinion Contracts
only define content, it is the *.fv (view) that defines *where*, in other words I stick with
my mail
+Sep 19 09:32:01 <crossley>	ah brilliant, that has eased my confusion.
+Sep 19 09:32:16 <rgardler>	THorsten., Tim, do we agree?
+Sep 19 09:32:29 <rgardler>	Sorry (cheche as well)
+Sep 19 09:32:41 <twilliams_>	of course, for fun, there's no reason why someone couldn't
write a really big contract to take over placement too;)
+Sep 19 09:32:49 <crossley>	over to you guys, lets get back to thorstens summary, backreading
+Sep 19 09:32:59 <cheche>	rgardler: that is ok :-) 
+Sep 19 09:33:01 <twilliams_>	... yeah, i agree 
+Sep 19 09:33:27 <cheche>	I do not if I agree because I am way behind the conversation,
but I am cool to whatever you think is right.
+Sep 19 09:33:46 <rgardler>	Thosten?
+Sep 19 09:33:49 <rgardler>	Thorsten?
+Sep 19 09:34:50 <tscherler>	+1
+Sep 19 09:34:52 <tscherler>	sorry
+Sep 19 09:35:22 <tscherler>	actually contracts can be found everywhere
+Sep 19 09:35:31 <tscherler>	that makes them so sexy ;-)
+Sep 19 09:35:31 <crossley>	good
+Sep 19 09:36:27 <rgardler>	OK, we are inagreement on input side then, contracts produce
XHTML2 for consumption in the core, now lets look at the output side
+Sep 19 09:36:53 <rgardler>	Thorsten said : output(contracts) - please give an example
of a contract that is used on the output side
+Sep 19 09:37:36 <tscherler>	all our current contracts are xhtml output, right?
+Sep 19 09:37:40 <twilliams_>	yep

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