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From Ross Gardler <rgard...@apache.org>
Subject Re: XHTML2 as forrest internal
Date Mon, 11 Aug 2008 16:49:55 GMT
Tim Williams wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 10:07 PM, David Crossley <crossley@apache.org> wrote:
>> Ross Gardler wrote:
>>> Carlos Tejo Alonso wrote:
>>>
>>>>> For a very long time we have intending to move to a subset of XHTML
>>>>> 2. But planning and doing are two different things. We need someone
>>>>> with a suitably strong need to solve the problems posed by XDoc to
>>>>> actually do it.
>>>> Maybe, we should start to think to do it. Could somebody show the
>>>> steps to move from xdoc to xhtml? I will try to do my bit.
>>> If it were that simple we would have done it by now ;-)
>>>
>>> There have been a number of false starts on this. My own effort was
>>> aborted because a significant number of people in the community
>>> disagreed with my approach.
>> Wow. That is not my recollection. I thought that we had a
>> little try, confirmed that it would take a co-ordinated
>> approach, and left it for another day. I am talking about
>> the re-working of all sitemaps and stylesheets (including
>> plugins) to deal with XHTML2 internally, leaving everything
>> else (e.g. cocoon) as it already is.
>>
>> Are you talking about something else, or do you recall
>> it differently?
> 
> <blush> I reckon he's mostly referring to me:(
> 
>>> Gav made a start on an XHTML2 plugin (in whiteboard) but that also stalled.
>> IIRC, the initial "internal.xhtml2" and "input.xdoc" were
>> the result of Ross, Tim, and others around some of our
>> Friday IRC sessions. I thought that was a fantastic step forward.
>>
>> I thought that it was just waiting for some group of people
>> to get itchy again.
> 
> The details are forgotten with time, but I believe the sticking point
> was an issue of "scope" of what it means to transition.  There were
> two pieces of work to be done:
> o) Data format - schema, updating input plugins, create xdoc->xhtml2
> plugin, etc.
> o) Pipeline refining - update pipelines to take advantage of xhtml2 + views
> 
> IIRC, I wanted them to be addressed separately to allow baby steps.
> Ross preferred more holistic approach.  Part of my motivation at the
> time was that views were still very much a moving target.  In the end,
> no substantive steps were taken and I probably gave way too much merit
> to how much any given approach really matters in the grand scheme.
> Perhaps the only good news is that in the meantime the dispatcher has
> matured, making the timing ripe for someone to re-engage.

As you say time blurs the recollection - but all the discussions are in 
the mailing lists and the IRC session logs, in particular:

http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/forrest/events/forrest-friday/20050906-log.txt

and

http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/forrest/events/forrest-friday/20050918-log.txt

I think Tim's recollection is close enough. At the time some people felt 
that views were not mature enough for this early XHTML2 experimental work.

Today views (now Dispatcher) is reasonably stable, but it still has not 
graduated from the whiteboard.

At the time of doing our experiments with the XHTML2 work I used views 
*because* it was a moving target. At that time it was an opportunity to 
rewrite significant portions of Forrest a piece at a time.

Once that was done we could decide to retrofit that to skins or to move 
the work into the main dispatcher (nee views) pkugin. However, we never 
got that far because we couldn't agree on the right approach and I 
didn't want to waste my time on an approach that was not going to be 
accepted by the community.

In that respect I think Davids recollections are also true. There is a 
great deal of work to do to make XHTML2 happen and without the full 
support of the community it isn't going to happen.

We are agreed that we need to do it. We are not agreed with how to do 
it. Personally I think anyone who has the time to devote to this should 
be free to just get on with it and we, as a community, should provide 
whatever support we can.

It is the end result that matters not the road we take.

So, if someone is working in dispatcher on their home sites and their 
itch says they need XHTML2 support then go for it with the dispatcher. 
If you are using skins, then go for it using skins.

Ross



> 
> If my memory has served me wrong, I apologize in advance, it's
> definitely not my intent to be a revisionist historian:)
> 
> --tim


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