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From Thorsten Scherler <>
Subject Re: The future (was Re: New skin: Coat)
Date Mon, 02 Jan 2006 23:54:26 GMT
El lun, 02-01-2006 a las 22:55 +0000, Ross Gardler escribió:
> Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> > El lun, 02-01-2006 a las 06:48 +0000, Ross Gardler escribió:
> > 
> >>I've been wanting to create a skin for Forrest that looks like that at 
> >> for some time. Mostly because the default Forrest 
> >>skins are, well "old".
> >>
> >>The recent thread on the incubator list discussing Forrest as a tool has 
> >>finally prompted me into action (congrats to anyone deliberately 
> >>provoking us to make this happen ;-). I've built the Incubator site 
> >>using it.
> >>
> >>It's not perfect, but a a very good start. Really this should be done in 
> >>the dispatcher, especially since most of the work is removing stuff from 
> >>pelt and changing the CSS. However, we need this now, at least as a demo 
> >>of a good clean skin. Besides, it only took about an hour and a half.
> > 
> > 
> > Actually I am still trying to catch up all the mails around the emerging
> > need for this and a couple of other threads, so just a quick remark
> > about it.
> > 
> > Actually we can use the css and do it in a dispatcher theme. We need to
> > finish up the dispatcher and release it because it solves a lot of the
> > problems that leaded us to this new skin.
> I agree.
> I'm doing a theme for it right now. 


> I don't want to waste time on the 
> skin version, there are some problems my CSS skills won't solve easily 
> so I'm starting from scratch with a theme. 

I saw the jira mails.

> The purpose of the skin was 
> to show that the look and feel can be changed really quickly and there 
> is no need to use unreleased features.

Yeah, still actually it showed that you needed to create a whole new
skin to just adjust "trivial" design changes. I mean like you said you
needed to mainly remove features, this is what you can do in a single
structurer. ;-) ...but it is unreleased till now. ...what will hopefully
change very soon. ;-)

> However, looking forward rather than backward, it appears that there is 
> now hardware available for the site-build tool. Forrest is not ready for 
> that, but I would like to put a demo together showing how close we are. 
> People do not realise that we have been making steady progress on the 
> requirements outlined at [1].
> The next big task with respect to the site-build tool is the handling of 
> multiple projects with a single command. The new properties system 
> solves the easy 80% of that, we just have the hard 20% left ;-) (oh and 
> to finish the locationmap integration and the dispatcher)

Yeah, we have many things to finish, so no worries that we failed so
closely for the site-build tool. 

> > I would be happy to create a coat theme and release the dispatcher with
> > it but IMO we need to focus on the dispatcher more then to do it in
> > skins now. 
> You focus on the dispatcher code - that's where your knowledge is most 
> valuable.

jeje, ok. :)

> We also need you to focus on the Lenya integration when you've finished 
> the dispatcher - you have enough to do already ;-)

Yeah, the lenya integration has highest priority for me after final cut
of the dispatcher.  

> I'll ask if I have problems with the CSS.

no problem

> (don't worry I'm going to help with the Lenya stuff too)

Actually I wonder whether it is possible to extend the daisy plugin to a
generic external repository connector plugin. I mean you are "just"
connecting to some uri and retrieve the content from there. Or do I miss

> > I understand what you have done with the creation of this skin and
> > really appreciate it, but now we should finish the dispatcher. BTW IMO
> > it would have been faster to do it with a structurer + css. ;-)
> Yes, it would have been faster, but I wanted to show it could be done 
> without using unreleased features. I'm not going to polish the skin 
> version. I'm agree with you that we need to keep pushing forward.

k, no worries like said before I understand your very good intentions. 

> I'm also with David that we need to pick our users carefully before the 
> 1.0, anyone only willing to complain and not willing to ask simple 
> questions is not a useful resource for us right now.

Actually the thing that most worries me that all the conversations and
complaints not have been directed to this list but to others. We never
had a chance to help or response. 

> The way forward, in the short term, has to be to support users willing 
> to be *power* users. We need to provide something above and beyond other 
> tools *out of the box*. As devs we know just how powerful Forrest is, 
> but it seems our vision is not being seen outside the project.

Actually do not worry too much about this, we are <1.0 and not ready for
a big user base. Having our vision of forrest to much outside of the
project is producing high expectation and lots of interested users,
asking questions, that we will answer and not working on 1.0.

You pointed out our target user: *power* users, that give valuable
feedback how we have to enhance.

> We need to make it as simple as possible for power users to stay up to 
> date (see other threads). Once we have that in place we can start going 
> out there looking for those users, I would propose putting together a 
> demo of a (single site) site-build project and taking it to site-dev as 
> a prototype (we have much to do before we do that though - this is a 
> medium term vision).

Actually I see this in connection with lenya. We should try to leverage
CMS features to lenya and "just" providing an awesome renderer. 

Forrest as site-build tool would be "just" a crawling renderer capable
of connecting to multiple content repositories. The dispatcher is the
renderer, the cli.xconf the crawling configuration.


"Together we stand, divided we fall!" 
Hey you (Pink Floyd)

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