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From David Crossley <>
Subject Re: [Proposal] Development process and a stable trunk
Date Sun, 28 Aug 2005 04:19:27 GMT
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> Before you read this reply, please read again my original reply. 
> Did you read it, ok then go ahead and please be not offended that your
> name may not be mentioned here or in the other thread but you actually
> contributed to views in any form. That is not my intention. I was
> focusing on code for views and the common danger of ignoring threads.

First of all, you will need to try very hard to
be able to offend me. You were not.

I was trying to use myself as an example to show various
things: that everyone has their own itches to scratch,
silence does not mean disinterest, that people are actually
reading your commits and emails but not necessarily
contributing, people are busy doing other things, we each
have something that we wish others would work more on,
there are some fundamental issues that need to be cleared, etc.

I try to use myself as an example so that there is no
risk of other people getting offended or unnecessarily
defensive. That backfired today :-)

I agree whole-heartedly with your warning about ignoring
threads and at the same time i am saying that we need to
allow people to particpate in some things and not others.

By the way, thanks for daring to use "views" as a case
to discuss these important issues about how this small
yet diverse project can operate.

More below ...

> Ross Gardler wrote:
> > David Crossley wrote:
> > > Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> > >>
> > >>All PMC members should feel responsible for *all* issues of forrest.
> > > 
> > > We should do whatever we can manage and try to
> > > not ignore anything. 
> > > 
> > >>My
> > >>background is certainly views where I am the position of *not* ignoring
> > >>this threads but sometimes it seems to me that the rest is doing it.
> > > 
> > > Well i certainly am not. I try to read everything
> > > and only respond if i think that i need to.
> > > Even started my next project to use views, so
> > > expect more development soon.
> > > 
> > > I trust you to get on and do the best you can
> > > and i will try to help when i can manage it.
> > > Please don't take silence to mean that nobody cares.
> > > That is not true.
> I should have written *seems*!

You did already. I was trying to dispel your impression
that nobody is interested.

I should have prefaced my comments to explicitly
say that i was supporting and exploring the issues,
and that there was no offence.

> I know and it was nothing against somebody en special and least against
> you or Ross! See your response about the comments, I was not aware of it
> myself and you pointed us in the right direction.
> Now if you would have kindly ignored the thread, then we would try to
> find the problem in views. Thx for being an example for *not* ignoring
> threads. 
> > Yes, I think these comments are true for most devs. We all have limited 
> > time and assume that lazy consensus is in operation most of the time. To 
> > be honest, I am a little offended that my input, when it comes, is not 
> > recognised (actually I'm not, I know that is not what you meant but it 
> > supports my point, others, who do not know your style, may well be 
> > offended by comments like those above).
> I wrote:
> > The answer is that Diwaker and Cyriaque are the only
> > ones beside me that contributed to the code base.
> I was actually thinking about commits or patches that where made to the
> view code base. I should have written committed. 
> I always consider input as very welcome and you are right that this are
> contributions as well.
> I am awe-fully sorry if I have offended somebody with my comments that
> was not my intention. English is not my first language and my choice of
> words seems to cause many confusion lately. I am sorry for that.

No need. Even in one's native language these issues
are hard to deal with. Important issues often are.

Start from the point of trust. We know that you are
not offending anyone. Feel free to say whatever you need.

> Anyway right now I wish more input with code examples and was talking
> about that. If somebody recommend some changes to sources then this is
> best done with code examples (aka patches) or commits. Diwaker and
> Cyriaque provided patches that extended the views code base and enhanced
> the implementation. For example David et. al. as well is committing to
> the code base regularly, I did not mentioned everyone because I was
> thinking about patches.
> > > Most of my time is being taken up with general issues
> > > for the Forrest project, so i don't often have the
> > > time to help. I wish that other people would help more
> > > with that stuff, applying the patches, guiding the
> > > new developers.
> > 
> > +1000  (and a big thank you to David)
> Yes, you, David and Ross, are doing an awesome job. Thanks very much.
> Sorry, if I offended you, it was not my intention.

You didn't. Actually that was perhaps my fault.
Re-read that paragraph. (Thanks to Tim for breaking
into another important thread). I wonder if i should
have been more explicit.

I was suggesting that all of us need to slow down on
our pet topics for a little while, help out more with
the general parts of the project, especially the naming
and core pipeline re-arrangement and efficiency issues
that plague us at the moment. This will enable each of
us to catch up and have a chance to investigate and then
help with these new functionalities like "views".

If other people helped more with applying patches,
then people like me would be relieved and could help
more with views development. There is one patch
sitting there from a new developer. Who is going to
commit it before i get compelled to jump in?

> > >>That cannot keep on in the future. Let me give you an example why not.
> > >>Imaging I have a car accident and dead (very drastic example I have to
> > >>admit but it is possible). Now all forrest devs are kindly ignoring the
> > >>[views] thread, what is happening then?
> > > 
> > > We could say the same about things like the
> > > catalog entity resolver. I wonder who else besides
> > > me understands it or enhances it.
> > 
> > Or plugins half way through the 0.7 dev, or the locationmap, or i18n or 
> > any one of the features within Forrest. Thorsten, you really must 
> > understand that you are only considering your own baby - it *is* 
> > important, but no more important than any of the other features being 
> > introduced. 
> No, I actually did not only consider my own baby, that was only an
> example. Replace [views] and my person with all your mentioned features
> and they main supporter like Ross and plugins, David and catalog entity
> resolver,...
> My point was that we cannot "kindly ignore" threads that may are not our
> personal focus. 

I agree entirely. We were actually giving other cases
in support of that. It is a recognised fact that each
area has one or two main developers. It is important that
we all do broaden our focus to assist with other areas.

> > The level of input you get on views is comparable to the 
> > level of input on other peoples "babies". 
> Yes, you are right. Maybe because it is replacing/extending skins.
> > As David said, silence means 
> > we trust you to do a good job, we speak up when we see a problem or an 
> > easier way of doing things, otherwise we let you get on with it (and in 
> > most cases use it with pleasure).
> Yes, again you are right. Sometimes I only wish that code example would
> be a bigger part of the input.
> > > There other things that i want to solve with views
> > > before diving in. Like the unfinished thread about
> > > "Defining Views Terminology".
> > 
> > +1000 - there was a proposal some time ago (written by someone not 
> > currently credited by you as doing any work for views). Your response to 
> > that was "I'm working on a proposal", but so far nothing has been 
> > forthcoming and we have not had your input on the second thread that 
> > David started (also not credited with doing any work on views).
> I did not add more to this threads because I did not had to add
> anything. Everything was already said.

Then we need to finalise it and do the renaming actions
that were discussed. That is the backgound work that
needs to happen before the rest of the project can
really assist with views.

> Actually I have 10 different versions of this proposal in my draft dir
> and I guess they contain all specific answers to the threads you
> mentioned. Not one is there that I am convinced of. Actually on the end
> I was on the one hand close to recommend to change nothing and on the
> other to agree with all written by you and david. Further to rename e.g.
> views into themes or structurer has as many downsides as keeping the
> name IMO. I guess it is because I have my own point of view what views
> are and I am obviously not able to explain myself. I guess if I could
> explain and name it in German then that would be different. 

Hey that is a great idea. You take the thread [1]
and summarise it to describe each facet of the
"views" in German and English (the English ones
are almost there just need summarising). Then
because we have quite a few German speakers on
this list, we can clarify the English definitions.

 Re: Defining Views Terminology

> Anyway please be not offended that I have not given Ross and David
> credits for the threads, which are really awesome. See above I had more
> code in mind. I actually I will not keep on trying finishing the
> proposal. I want to concentrate on coding views independent from any
> naming rather then discussing the chosen names. It's all hollow words in
> the end.

The naming is extremely important, well chosen names
are very powerful. They can instantaneously convey
the whole concept.

> Please feel free to propose new naming convention for views and assume
> that lazy consensus is in operation from my part. Be sure if I see a
> problem or an easier way of doing things that I will speak up. 

Please no, we need your input.

For me, one of the best things about [1] was that it
started to define all the separate pieces of the puzzle
and helped me to see more of what "views" are about.
However, it is still too clouded.

The process that we started at ApacheCon was to
carefully explain each piece and then the names
would become apparent.

> > [Note, I'm not pointing fingers with these bracketed comments, just 
> > trying to further illustrate my point of potential offense given by 
> > these statements]
> Sorry, that was not my intention.
> > > And i think that moving the core to XHTML2 is more
> > > important at this stage, so i will put my "spare"
> > > energy there. Don't see that as ignoring "views"
> > > as i expect that will help.
> > 
> > Actually, I thought forrest:views in core were going to be the first 
> > version of Forrest wusing XHTML2. So your work on XHTML2 *is* work on 
> > helping forrest:views move to core.
> Yes, but there a *million* thinks to do (coding) to move views to the
> core. The changes of the contracts to accept xhtml2 as input I consider
> as one of the easiest part in the process. As soon as we have a xhtml2
> internal format we can quickly change the contracts. contracts are very
> flexible in regards of input format. still that is only one thing.
> I agree that the move to xhtml2 is very important but IMO that should be
> happen parallel to views integration.

We need a concentrated effort from all developers
to move the core to xhtml2. The job is too big to
be left to one or two people - it will not happen.
I suggest that we all need to stop scratching our
own itches for a little while and just do it.


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