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From Thorsten Scherler <>
Subject Re: [Skins] Leather-dev vs. scale-dev
Date Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:11:27 GMT
Hello Shaun,

cheers that you are still here and still willing to help! ;-)

Shaun Evans escribió:
>>I just had a look at your skin. Before I start didn't we agree on the 
>>specific containers that have been already implemented in leather?
>>I have choosen this container to make live in the future better. ;-)
>>You are using different containers then in leather. Your 
>>DOM-tree looks 
>>like this:
>>But leather have (by purpose)
>>   +-branding
>>   +-search
>>   +-nav
>>   +-content
>>   +-siteinfo
> I am aware of this now, thanks for the link. Scale-dev was simply a test
> (hence the dev): now I understand entirely I will tell you what I
> thought you meant originally. I thought that leather-dev was a skin
> where everything was controlled from the CSS, where people at the CSS
> end could 'build their own skin' without even touching XSL, built using
> divs with IDs referenced in the CSS. Until now I was not aware that
> there were standard naming conventions that leather was entirely based
> around.

Yeah, leather-dev *is* a skin where everything is controlled from the 
CSS (like pelt) and is based entirely around naming conventions (unlike 

> The search is intentionally inside branding, and I can't think of where
> it would go if not there. As it is visually inside it in leather-dev
> anyway, I see it as more CSS-efficient to have search inside branding. I
> have done the same with the tabs.

Now we talk. ;-)

That is what I thought. You are saying because of design reason the 
search has to be in branding container, right.

My question for you as webdesigner is can we simulate the same design 
and have the search-container outside of branding?
How can we work with semantic container without limiting the design?
Try to get out of your comfort zone. This is a challenge! ;-)

> I have already (since receiving your email, I type slowly) altered the
> structure to make it like this:
>  container
>     +-branding
>       +-search
>       +-tabs
>     +-nav
>     +-content
>     +-siteinfo

Yeah, very nice, much better. :)

Ok see above questions: do you see a possiblity how we can get to


and still keep your awesome design? I think that is quite a challenge 
but do you think it is possible?

Anyway if not just change the design ;-)

>>Maybe I have to explain a wee bit more about the approach.
>> From my experience we should not introduce more skins that 
>>are changing just the design. I think we have to have a 
>>common base of elements that can be changed just with the 
>>css. In the future we then have a wide range of css-styles 
>>for the leather skin. We can then decide to just support one 
>>skin. I said one skin because Corium is not really a skin but 
>>a skinBot.
> +1 - I agree, and I believe both leather-dev and scale-dev are currently
> capable of doing this. However, leather-dev's CSS is much more difficult
> to work with than scale-dev (primarily because it's huge).

I do not understand the leather-dev is like pelt because it is based on 
it. Can you explain why you think it is huge?

> I think that we should work to implement this codeblock into
> (snipped from
> # If you want to use other css-files then the default ones than
> # override it here. Point to the location of the dir containg the files
> #forrest.skins.CSS.dir = /home/thorsten/style/zenCssGarden/someSkin
> #forrest.skins.CSS.dir = http://provider/style/someSkin
> Also, this could be added:
> Where basic.css can be replaced with a number of different
> next-generation 'skins' (which are actually css files) e.g. scale.css
> (scale-dev), forrest.css (which is the next-gen
> website), and new.css (which is a blank CSS except for headings for each
> component of leather, used for creating new 'skins').


Yeah, that is coming for Corium. First let us finish leather. This 
discussion is really helping to see the problems with leather and maybe 
to find solutions.

>>I would like to dedicate one page for leather. I will write a 
>>background section, why we have choosen the approach of 
>>semantic container, and a section about how we want to use it 
>>in the future.
> +1, willing to help with documentation on editing the CSS.


Cheers, Shaun! I really think we can work close together on the issue 
and glad you are offering help.

>>P.S.: Please, Shaun, try to rewrite the css that I can just 
>>exchange the css-files. If you have problems with some 
>>positioning than write to this list and we can see how we can 
>>solve it. BTW it do not have to be the 
>>same outcome as the original Mozilla one.
> It's not just the positioning that I was having trouble with in
> leather-dev. Rather than having a huge skin that I can't manage, I
> prefer to work from the ground up. If you want me to, I will post my
> latest scale-dev (which comes closer to the leather-dev) in JIRA.

Yeah of course, please post it to jira. ...again why do you think it is 
a huge skin? Is pelt a huge skin as well?

> IMHO, and I mean no offense by saying this, I would like to see
> scale-dev used because it _works_, whereas leather-dev doesn't (from the
> viewers' point of view). 

Leather-dev has no css yet and the functionality is not implemented but 
that is why it is called -dev. ;-) I was trying to create the css and 
then capsulate the functions. Then you entered the game and offered to 
write the css-component for leather. I am really *really* happy about that.

Leather so far is an implementation of a not yet established standard. 
We hope that we from forrest can establish such a standard. Who knows 
maybe some day in the future every major system will use this standard 
in creating webpages. ...and you have been the first one to implement a 
style for it. ;-)

Leather is something very new and we will be the first project that is 
implementing a css-skin with naming conventions. I hope that we can 
prove that it is possible to create a great skin that are controlled 
only by css and having naming conventions.

If we have the proof of concept the next projects to implement our work 
are apache lenya ( and midgard 
( I hope we then can talk with other 
projects to discuss our standard (that is why it as well a project on I had a chat with someone from and he very is interested as well to base new skins 
on our standard.

leather-dev, if you see my point, is a great
> example of xsl and could (IMO, should) be used as a source of code to
> put into scale-dev. However, as I said, it is better to get something
> that works before you try to 'improve' it all the way up to a
> releaseable standard.

:) Leather is an implementation of a standard. It is until now only 
that. Nothing more, nothing less. My primary objective was to implement 
a html skelleton that is based on standards. That is what we have now. 
The next steps are:
- create a nice webdesign for the standard
- add the capsulated functionality to the skin
- test and release leather
- ...
- create the SkinBot "Corium"

> Trying not to sound pedantic, I am quite disappointed with the way you
> have reacted to my contribution of scale-dev. I am not new to Forrest,
> but I am new to it's development and I am unfamiliar with the way that
> you do things. 

Try to understand everybody starting to develope here in this community 
will have to learn everyday new things (I am the best example, ask the 
guys how many times they have to explain me certain things before I 
understood that it is best for the project). It is much about to forget 
your ego and try to understand what it is best for the community and the 
project in the future.

I thought it is good to learn the forrest way of doing things from the 
first second you became part of the project. I am just trying to help 
you. Do not be offended of that!!!

"Together we stand, divided we fall"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)

Being a web designer, not a developer, at heart, I have
> my own way of working with things, and it's not the same as the way you
> do. 

That is the reason why I am so happy that you are around now (I thought 
you got that from my first mails) and hope you will keep on working with 
us. I need someone that tells me the problems with leather now and that 
we can over-come this problems. ;-)

I know that is harder to implement a skin that looks like the mozilla 
one without touching the html-code but IMO it is possible. Like I said I 
am here to learn from you how we have to change the standard to work 
more efficient with it.

I may present the developers view and you the designer view. Truely 
seperation of concerns. Now you and me have to find contracts that we 
will propose as standards for this kind of relation. ;-)

If you said that I was trying to make changes to the way you do
> things, you're right. Hopefully, in the future, I will be able to work
> with the way you do things, and you will take my opinion into account.
> (I distinctly remember something similar happening last week with Sean
> Wheller)

STOP! You are now doing things the forrest way. Discuss you thoughts 
here in the ml, telling us your opinion and problems. In some things you 
may not have the background knowledge why we decided to do the way we 
are doing it. That makes it necessary to ask why we want to do it like 
that. I am the last one on earth not to listen to good reasoning. ;-)

Let me state cristall clear: I take your opinion into account! That is 
why I am answering your mail ;-).

If I would not give a s**t about your opinion then I would be just 
developing leather and not answering your mails (did you thought about 

> Thorsten: Excuse me if what I have said isn't to your taste. 

No, I am glad you start to discuss things with us. Telling your opinion 
on things rather to present a finished result. What you said is my 
taste! ;-) Thanks and no offence taken.

Our end
> views with regard to scale and leather are much the same, but you
> believe that it should be done using leather, and I believe the same for
> scale. 

Like I said in an earlier mail. Scale reminds me on pelt. Pelt I do not 
like anymore because it is full of design hooks in the code. I started 
to rewrite the skelleton to have a clear seperation of concern between 
programmers and designers.

Funny, the first version of leather was actually the same as scale 
(maybe I will find the revision number). ;-) I know the problem of 
placing elements that are depending on graphical hooks. Can we not 
overcome that problem?

Please consider my point of using scale as a base, and leather as
> a source of advanced features that I haven't implemented in scale-dev
> yet, as it makes life easy and simple, and I am willing to help you with
> it.

Like Nicola stated you can always write your own skin and publish it 
somewhere, we will included it in the skin.descriptor.

If you want to help creating a standard that will be not only used here 
but hopefully in more projects then help me to overcome your problems 
with leather.

I do not see the point in mixing up concern again. We have been at this 
point 1 month ago and we decided to drop the mix-up. To use scale-dev as 
base is IMO a step back to one month ago.

> Thanks
> #shaun

To you. I really hope that we can work together to finish the leather 
skin. I really do not feel to give up the standard.

Maybe we can use the scale-dev as alternativ css for pelt and you will 
write a new css for leather with the given naming conventions.

As soon you see a problem with the conventions lets discuss it here and 
we will overcome them, how does this sound for you?

"Together we stand, divided we fall"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)

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