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From Rodent of Unusual Size <Ken.C...@Golux.Com>
Subject Re: latest forrest can't build incubator site
Date Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:17:07 GMT
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David Crossley wrote:
>
>> Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
>>
>> that makes it better.. but it does *not* restore the appearance
>> we had/{want?}.  observe the difference between what we have/want:
>>
>> http://cvs.apache.org/~coar/i.a.o-before.png
>
> You will not get the same as you had before.
> The skins have moved on and been developed since then.

okey, then i think forrest is not the tool for the incubator site.
the site isn't maintained as a whole by a team; it consists
of sections maintained by different groups of people.  if
the entire site has to be regenerated each time for safety
and consistency, then it's not for us.

>> 1. the tab (shape,font,size,highlighting} is substantially different.
>
> Is that bad or just different?

it's not what we felt happy with, so it's bad.  forrest is forcing
a change on us without our consent, and with no way to resist.

>> 2. the print/pdf icons in the upper right have been shrunken to things
>>    barely recognisable.
>
> Don't know what can be done there.
>
>> 3. the text in the 'search' box has changed from white to black,
>>    reducing readability.
>
> Will need to investigate, but low priority.
>
>> 4. worst of all, the body has changed so that it now has a toc at the
>>    beginning, pushing the meat of the page down.
>
> I note that all the other Incubator pages do have the ToC ...
> http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html

not the project cwiki pages.

> So my guess is that a bug has been fixed in the Wiki parsing
> to enable the ToC which was missing before. See the notes in
> site/skinconf.xml there are options for the ToC.

so that might be fixable -- if it can be localised to specific
portions of the site and not forcibly apply to all pages.

> Hmm, my guess is that that there are now missing
> supporting files, e.g *.css which should have also
> been published to incubator.apache.org
>
> You updated one page with its skeleton HTML but i did
> not see any commit messages for the /skin/ directory.

correct.  i'm updating a single page.  that's all i want to change.
i do *not* want to have to figure out ancillary pages that need to
be frobbed even though i didn't touch them.

> When it looks decent locally, the whole incubator site
> should be updated. Thereafter it will be much easier.

until the next time the site gets out of sync with forrest's evolution.

> You can't have the original. We have updated the skins
> to be more efficient and better able to be styled, i.e
> to have better use of straight html and css. There is no
> going back to the old stuff.

then the forrest project is forcing a look&feel change on us, its
users.  regardless of whether the new look&feel is better (i for one
don't think it is), that's not acceptable to me.  i don't appreciate
being told how my web pages should look.  if the software forcibly
changes with no backward compatibility, that software isn't for me.

> Well look at it from the Forrest project point-of-view.
> We spend ages writing documentation to help people
> upgrade from 0.5 to 0.6 version. Then people start using
> the unreleased dev version *without* doing such upgrade steps.
> Of course there will be difficulties. Then we need to dive in and
> help. All this time we cannot get 0.6 released because too busy.
>
> There. We have both let off some steam.

:-)

except: since the incubator site doesn't have a single set of maintainers,
no-one apparently was aware that the site needed to be upgraded along
with the software to build it.

i think forrest is clearly too advanced and heavy-weight an app for
the incubator site's purpose.

> In my opinion, using Forrest is really easy.
> The incubator project has been caught in a sloppy transition.
> Give me some time to help fix it.

before you invest any more time, let's see if the incubator wants
to stick with forrest.
- --
#ken	P-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist      http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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