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From David Crossley <cross...@apache.org>
Subject Re: latest forrest can't build incubator site
Date Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:09:01 GMT
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
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> 
> yes, the problem appears to have been my ibm 1.3 jdk was too ancient
> for forrest to run properly.  replacing it with sun's 1.4.2_05
> seems to  have fixed the mysterious exceptions.  since it *was*
> apparently due to a too-old jre, i ask that either the build
> for forrest itself, or the script used when actually *using* forrest,
> whichever/both is appropriate, be enhanced to flag a too-old jre.
> 
> David Crossley wrote:
> 
> > Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> >> David Crossley wrote:
> >> > i see that the Derby page is a mess.
> >> > http://incubator.apache.org/projects/derby.html
> >>
> >> > This is because you are using the recent Forrest
> >> > but have not updated the configuration files.
> >>
> >> I have committed your changes to CVS.
> >
> > Good on you, Noel.
> 
> that makes it better.. but it does *not* restore the appearance
> we had/{want?}.  observe the difference between what we have/want:
> 
> http://cvs.apache.org/~coar/i.a.o-before.png

You will not get the same as you had before.
The skins have moved on and been developed since then.

The configuration might still need tweaking. I will send
another patch. But having gone through this whole email,
there is not much more that needs attention.

> and what the above change gives us:
> 
> http://cvs.apache.org/~coar/i.a.o-after.png
> 
> specifically:
> 
> 1. the tab (shape,font,size,highlighting} is substantially different.

Is that bad or just different?

> 2. the print/pdf icons in the upper right have been shrunken to things
>    barely recognisable.

Don't know what can be done there.

> 3. the text in the 'search' box has changed from white to black,
>    reducing readability.

Will need to investigate, but low priority.

> 4. worst of all, the body has changed so that it now has a toc at the
>    beginning, pushing the meat of the page down.

I note that all the other Incubator pages do have the ToC ...
http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html

So my guess is that a bug has been fixed in the Wiki parsing
to enable the ToC which was missing before. See the notes in
site/skinconf.xml there are options for the ToC.

> ** argh.  worse and worse.  i just uploaded the changed pages to
> ** the web site, since they were better than the last set -- but apparently
> ** there are additional files that need to go up to define the styles.
> ** because http://incubator.apache.org/projects/derby.html, which i
> ** just uploaded from my own build, and which should look like
> ** http://cvs.apache.org/~coar/i.a.o-after.png , instead looks like it
> ** did before noel applied david's changes.  evidently the changes
> ** are needed for more than just the build; some of their output in
> ** addition to the target html page is needed as well.  which leads
> ** me to be concerned that making that change, which should make the
> ** derby page look like the 'after' picture, will break *other* pages
> ** already on the site.

Hmm, my guess is that that there are now missing
supporting files, e.g *.css which should have also
been published to incubator.apache.org

You updated one page with its skeleton HTML but i did
not see any commit messages for the /skin/ directory.

When it looks decent locally, the whole incubator site
should be updated. Thereafter it will be much easier.

> i really appreciate the improvement, but what do we need to do to regain
> our original look-and-feel?

You can't have the original. We have updated the skins
to be more efficient and better able to be styled, i.e
to have better use of straight html and css. There is no
going back to the old stuff.

> i'm not sure i entirely buy the 'was built with 0.5.1' argument, since
> ian holsman supposedly built the looked-right derby page on his own machine
> using 0.6-dev, with no skin/config changes, and then uploaded it.
> 
> i'm really sorry if i sound snarky and cranky; it's just that i want
> to *update the page and move on*, not spend a lot of time futzing
> around with having to update/upgrade various configurations and packages
> for days, only to *still* not have what i should have.

Well look at it from the Forrest project point-of-view.
We spend ages writing documentation to help people
upgrade from 0.5 to 0.6 version. Then people start using
the unreleased dev version *without* doing such upgrade steps.
Of course there will be difficulties. Then we need to dive in and
help. All this time we cannot get 0.6 released because too busy.

There. We have both let off some steam.

> this is not a slam against forrest by any means; i love forrest's potential.
> if anything, it's a criticism of the choice to use it for the i.a.o site,
> which is maintained largely by forrest non-users.  forrest is a moderately
> complex beast, and is still evolving.  someone (presumably whomever was
> originally so gung-ho for forrest that it set up/converted the i.a.o site
> to use it) should track the changes to forrest that are going to affect our
> use of it, and make appropriate modifications to the i.a.o site.  i don't
> think it's unreasonable for everyone updating the i.a.o site to know how to
> *use* forrest (update-pages-and-go), but i *do* think it's a bit over the top
> to expect them to know how to configure it and know what changes to make
> to track forrest's own evolution.

In my opinion, using Forrest is really easy.
The incubator project has been caught in a sloppy transition.
Give me some time to help fix it.

> moving on to how-to questions concerning the cwiki format:
> 
> 1. is there any way to create a prominent box for important notes?
> 2. is there any way to include [url] and ''italic'' inside a table?
>    (those seem to end the table def)
> 3. how does one signal bold text?

http://forrest.apache.org/docs/wiki-sample.html
http://www.jspwiki.org/Wiki.jsp?page=TextFormattingRules
You can't use every construct from the latter.
Forrest only handles a subset.

--David

> - --
> #ken	P-)}
> 
> Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Ken.Coar.Org/
> Author, developer, opinionist      http://Apache-Server.Com/
> 
> "Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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