Mailing-List: contact forrest-dev-help@xml.apache.org; run by ezmlm
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020527092409.021c81c0@mail.visitronics.be>
Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 09:50:56 +0200
To: forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
From: Bert Van Kets <bert@vankets.com>
Subject: Re: Forrest look-and-feel
In-Reply-To: <1022479549.2480.7435.camel@ighp>
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Hi Forestiers,

At 16:05 27/05/2002 +1000, you wrote:
>It would help to try keep the look-and-feel aspects discussed
>in a separate thread and leave the browser-specific things
>to the other threads.
>
>A few issues have been identified so far. Please add any more
>such high-level issues.
>
>1) Square edges on the panels vs rounded corners.

The decision to create rounded edges was not made by me.  I based this on 
the design from Stefano.  There is a PhotoShop file in 
src\resources\layout\xml.apache.org created by Stefano (and girlfriend to 
be exact).  I liked it, so used it to create the page.
I clearly stated in my mails that I would use that file to create the page.
If I did not need to implement the rounded corners I could have finished 
the page in 1 third the time!  I spent a LOT of time getting the corners 
right *every time*.


>2) Need minimum indents for <ul><li> in the menu panel.
>Can basic CSS can fix that?

This is just content.  At the moment it is done with unnumbered lists, but 
we can change that to lines with indents done by graphics or a table grid.


>3) Where will the page title be placed? Will it just be the
>first piece of content below the light-blue "Page 1 of 5"?
>Will it be an <h2> level heading?

Actually an h1 would be more relevant since it's considered more important, 
specially by robots indexing the page.  We can style it using CSS.  The 
location looks correct to me.


>4) Is something gained by the white vertical bar down
>the left-hand side of the window? We need to retain all
>possible page space.

It adds a little to the design, but can certainly be removed.  A lot will 
need to change then.  There's a 1 pixel line around the menu that will be 
rather ugly if it gets right up to the edge.  I can remove the little line, 
but then a lot of "finesse" is lost from the design.
Removing the white line simplifies the page a lot.  Getting the little 
piece of horizontal bar at the left of the menu scale up with the right 
part was one of the challenges of the page.  I cheated a little there since 
they are not in the same table and probably don't scale *exactly* the 
same.  Since the menu is between the two no one will ever see it.  I tested 
it with very little to very large text in different browsers and you really 
have to take a ruler to see the difference in height a large text sizes.


>*) More?

The French say "Les gouts et les couleurs, on ne discutte pas" (we don't 
discuss taste and color) which actually means that there will always be 
differences in opinion on style.  One likes rounded corners, the other 
doesn't.  One likes a white line at the left, the other doesn't.  This 
discussion is endless!

Let's make one thing clear: Let's first come to a decision on the layout 
(what you guys call "look and feel") and only then adjust the page.  If we 
keep discussing and trying adjusting I'll be doing nothing but adjusting 
the page all day long.  I thought the design was decided upon the 
layout/design from Stefano.  Remarks and adjustments should have been made 
then.  I made it very clear that I was going to use that design to start from.
I might sound harsh, but I've lost *countless* hours in the past creating 
and adjusting designs for customers who don't really know what they 
want.  Since we are in a very distributed group here who can't sit around 
the table and make a final decision in a few hours I guess we must all 
accept the fact that we use a site that looks acceptable to everybody but 
mainly is technologically sound.

Let's get a final agreement on the design and only then will I go on 
adjusting the page.

Bert

P.S. The above is meant to be constructive!  I'm not pissed off, just hate 
to lose time on decision reviews.  Do not start a flame war again.  I don't 
want to be crying in the corner like Nikola ;-)