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From "Steven Noels" <>
Subject RE: translation of document-v10 -> v11 DTD
Date Thu, 16 May 2002 07:02:04 GMT
Nicola et al. wrote:

> At Avalon many devs want to keep the v10 format because it's
> compatible with
> Anakia.
> I've already done a simple Forrest2MAven conversion in
> Centipede's Forrest
> Cent, which I want to put here ASAP.

To be frank: I'm not so sure whether Jakarta is the right use case to
focus on, right now. I know this might sound partisan, but this project
is about doing a new website, and not so much supporting
each and every old & new version of DTD circulating for the sake of
applications which are bound to these DTDs using (hard) code. Remember
my point of XSLT? ;-)

> Currently we have had a very hectic moment at Krysalis, but I
> think that
> beta 3 will come out very soon.
> I will make Forrest use that just after it, if you don't mind.

Use what?

> Oh, BTW, Keiron from Fop and Tom are our new committers for
> charting stuff.
> Keiron has "donated" very cool charting stuff, so Cocoon will
> have it very
> very soon :-)

Anxiously awaiting ;-)

> > > Clearly, new contributions should be based on v11. Why
> create additional
> > > work for ourselves down the road? I threw up what I had
> now, based on
> > > v10, because I'm feeling under pressure to show
> something. I've factored
> > > v11 into my draft dtds, for howto, tutorial, snippet, etc.
> >
> > (Diana is talking about the excellent new docs in Cocoon.)
> > You cannot mix document types. The Cocoon sitemap is
> > applying stylesheets which expect v10 content in all xdocs.
> > I think that all Cocoon documents will need to be converted
> > as a once-off batch process, along with corresponding
> > stylesheet and sitemap modifications. After that, yes, any
> > newly contributed doc should be v11.
> >
> > I wonder if there is another possibility which could allow
> > mixed document types during an extended transition process.
> > Can the stylesheet document2html.xsl be changed to detect
> > the DTD version, or is that information gone from the pipeline
> > once the XML instance has been parsed?

Information about the DTD is not available in the XPath/XSLT data model,
unless we provide this as a parameter to the XSLT process, which means
we'll have to indicate this somehow in the request environment, which is
really bad practice, I guess. So no: support for v10 will be done using
'liberal' stylesheets offering templates for older elements/attrs.

> > We would still
> > need to encourage transition to and use of the v11 DTD,
> > but in this way the stylesheet could cope with both.
> > On reviewing my comment i see that this could just introduce
> > another issue with cumbersome stylesheets.

+1: we can make liberal stylesheets, but we should clearly indicate
support for v10 is fading away. I will make sure s1|s2|s3 etc gets added
to the Forrest skin, but that's about all I'm planning to do to support
v10 authoring.

> > > I want to complete a global edit of all existing docs, in
> the near term,
> > > mainly to clean up embarrassing grammar and typos.
> Whoever does this
> > > (I'm happy to participate) could convert them to v11, one
> by one. After
> > > the job is complete, perhaps we should remove v10 from the dtd
> > > directories in the repository?
> >
> > I do not think it is good practice to remove the old DTD.
> > It must stay, otherwise users will suddenly have broken
> > documents in their projects. Worse still they will have
> > no way to transform them because Cocoon will break
> > when it cannot find the v10 DTD.
> But not mix them.
> They should clearly tell Forrst the version in use.

Dunno. We should think more about this.

> > > I think v10 -> v11 is ok for other Apache projects. I think we
> > > should expect Cocoon to be current...
> >
> > Absolutely, it must be a shining example. We need the
> > v10 -> v11 transformation for all projects including
> > Cocoon and also for users' own work which is based
> > on Forrest/Cocoon.
> +1
> > > > With the v11 dtd, we got rid of the stupid s1/s2/...
> and named them
> > > > sections instead, and another thing I'm still thinking about is
> > > > introducing a proper title element for sections. Apart
> from that, the
> > > > dtds are mostly identical, if not of course for the
> modularity of the
> > > > v11 versions.
> Yes.
> One point: in Centipede we already are using v11, and now it's being
> changed...  :-(

The early adopter syndrome :-)

I prefer to release "official v11 DTD's" together with the release of
Forrest 1.0 and with the new DTDs Dianna suggested added, too. Until
then, everything can be considered -dev. What people fail to see, is the
modular aspect of the new DTDs, which is much more important than some
elements/attrs getting changed. We should build our stylesheets
reflecting this modularity, so that it becomes easier to build your own
Forrest-skin (I will try to do so for the existing Forrest skin in the
next few days).



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