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From David Crossley <>
Subject Re: no more Quirks Mode
Date Tue, 28 May 2002 13:01:15 GMT
Chris Bentley wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > I am currently investigating the Forrest sitemap and
> > the Cocoon serializer capability to output the document
> > type declaration. At the moment, we are not writing any
> > declaration. Hence the "Quirks Mode" alerted by Chris below.
> > 
> > It is not sufficient to simply add the document type
> > declaration. I am also validating the output against
> > the declared DTD. That is where i am encountering a few
> > issues ... the various stylesheets need tweaking.
> By process that Bert is building to, there a rational reason to stay in
> Quirks mode; the reasoning would be;
> *I'm building to the standard of a "Non Standards Compliant" (quirky)
> browser.
> *If I switch "Standards Mode" on then it complicates the CSS and some HTMLy
> issues.
> *if I can keep the CSS simple and not go near Box models issues I can
> bootstrap the CSS form there.

Thanks for pointing that out. I had been contemplating the
effects that would arise from declaring a DTD. We certainly
want to take this in easy steps. There are many issues.
I am just exploring it now, so that when we finally want to
switch it on, then we can.

> > I have one question for the list. The last stylesheet
> > in our documentation pipeline is "site2xhtml.xsl".
> > I presume that the intention is to output XHTML. So i
> > am aiming for DTD XHTML Transitional. Does that sound OK?
> Using this DTD now will force "Standards Mode and complicate Bert's life?...

My experiments are aiming for it, but it will not happen
for a while. As you say below, we can gradually move that way.

> but I think you can still output XHTML without the DOCTYPE .. if there is a
> reason. I'm pretty sure it just has to be well formed - not necessarily
> valid - its just really some form of markup that looks like HTML to the
> browser.
> eg No declaration, no DOCTYPE and <br> become <br /> etc.
> The only reason to do this now would be that your markup would be already
> well formed XML if at some point in the future you wish to do valid XML. And
> I'm reasonably sure (in lue of testing) that there is no backward
> compatibility probs as long as you don't try to Validate.

Today i have been running Forrest locally and experimenting
with configuring the Cocoon serializer to declare the DTD.
Then i have been running the results through validation.

Things are looking rosy. I only found one real XHTML
validation error in all of Forrest. There are still issues
with sometimes missing attributes (e.g. img alt, height, width).

So we can still fine tune our output by occasionally
switching this capability on locally. That is one beauty
of the Cocoon sitemap.

> > If it gets too hard, then i am going to back down and go
> > for DTD HTML 4.01 to get something started.
> If you go HTML 4.01 transitional leave off the URI part or you will force
> the "Quirks mode" issue.

I think that you are saying that we can declare that it
is HTML 4.01 Transitional using the Public Identifier
but leave off the System Identifier so that Quirks mode
is triggered (which is what we want for this initial stage).

> I think Bert will have some strong opinions about this.

Do not worry, it is not going to suddenly switch on.

> > Anyway, i just thought that i would let you know what
> > i am up to.
> > --David

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