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From "Ivelin Ivanov" <ive...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Forrest HTML (was: draft howto dtd)
Date Sun, 26 May 2002 13:06:57 GMT

Bert,

To make the long story short, in a big enterprise, team of usability
experts goes through a detailed review of a product web pages with every
supported browser/OS
version. I have seen this taking many iterations until all is well.
The normal practise is that latest generation browsers (6.x) and major
version -1 (5.x) are supported.
Otherwise maintainance becomes overwhelming. All browsers which don't fall
in the 95% range are fed with one plain version which is functionally
equivalent to the best looking version, but is not as user friendly.

I hope you'll have the patience and energy it will take to implement most
usability fixes that will be requested by people. As in successful movies,
attention to details makes a big difference. Especially to developers.

The good news is though that developers are less impressed by flashy pages
as compared to clean flawless design with easy access to content they are
be interested in.

My long time favourite (usability wise) site is http://my.yahoo.com/


Cheers,

Ivelin


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bert Van Kets" <bert@vankets.com>
To: <forrest-dev@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 3:50 AM
Subject: Re: Forrest HTML (was: draft howto dtd)


> At 20:32 25/05/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >My only comment is:
> >
> >Can't believe you're doin all this by yourself !
>
> Hey, I'm just creating an optimized HTML page at this time.  I'll convert
> it to XSL later on.  Using the KISS principle helps a lot.  Start with the
> oldest technology and try to get things done, if that doesn't work, only
> then resort to newer ones.  This is not a valid statement for all
> technologies, but in browser land it's a MUST.
> There is one more reason for all this I didn't mention yet: using plain
> HTML has a LOT of advantages in getting pages indexed in search
> engines.  The robots used by the major search engines are not the most
> advanced programs around and certainly are picky on the page content.
>
>
> >It usually takes enterprise usability teams months and months to do
> >something like that.
>
> Hmmm, I think you are exaggerating a bit.  Or you have a completely wrong
> view on what I'm doing.
> I simply created a VMWare installation with Windows95 and one with
> Windows98.  Win95 comes with IE4, Win98 with IE5.0.  Simply copying the
> VMdisk file and upgrading the copy to IE5.5 solved the IE part.  Addind
> some Netscape and Opera versions is just a matter of downloading and
> installing.
> I already had a Suse Linux disk file, so that was easy enough.  Using this
> configuration I can run 4 CLEAN installations and 1 dirty one (the host OS
> - Win2K) on 1 machine.
> It only took me 1 day to get all this running.  Most of the stuff was done
> in background while working on my Cocoon project.
>
>
> >Bert Rocks !
>
> Hold your horses.  I will only be rocking when the result is accepted by
> the group.  Thanks anyway!
>
> Bert
> msn: hawk10000@hotmail.com
>
>
> >Ivelin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Bert Van Kets" <bert@vankets.com>
> >To: <forrest-dev@xml.apache.org>
> >Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 3:28 PM
> >Subject: Re: Forrest HTML (was: draft howto dtd)
> >
> >
> > > At 10:48 25/05/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >
> > > >Another minor comment about the current Forrest layout.
> > > >
> > > >It appears that the font size of the body text is fixed.
> > > >I usually use larger fonts setting in the browser, but it doesn't
> > > >affect Forrest pages.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Ivelin
> > >
> > > That's because the current design of Forrest is mainly based on CSS
and
> >teh
> > > font sizes are set fixed.
> > > I'm doing a completely new HTML coding of the page to be compatible
with
> > > older browser versions.  My target is Netscape 4.08!  When a site runs
> >fine
> > > on that one, it will run on most anything.  I''m not completely done,
but
> > > it's going pretty well.  I'm basing my layout on the design from
> > > Stefano.  It looks a lot better than the current one.
> > > I'm also taking people with bad vision into account and will make text
> > > sizable. Blind people are not forgotten either, so all images have
their
> > > alt and height and width tags.
> > >
> > > I will check the HTML with following browsers:
> > > - Internet Explorer 4 (Win95)
> > > - Internet Explorer 5.0 (Win98)
> > > - Internet Explorer 5.5 (Win98)
> > > - Internet Explorer 6 (Win2K)
> > > - Netscape Navigator 4.08 (Win98)
> > > - Netscape Communicator 4.79 (Win98)
> > > - Netscape Communicator 4.79 (Suse Linux 7.3)
> > > - Netscape 6.2.2 (Win2K)
> > > - Lynx 2.4.2 (Win98 Dos prompt)
> > > - Lynx 2.8.3 (Win2K Dos prompt)
> > > - Opera 5.02 (Win98)
> > > - Opera 6.02 (Win2K)
> > >
> > > I think I've got enough with these.  Does anybody need tests with
other?
> > >
> > > My main criteria are:
> > > - Navigation must be possible in all versions
> > > - Style must be as similar as possible to the graphical design in all
> >browsers
> > > - The page must give the impression of fast loading.  (NOT putting
> > > everything in 1 table is a must for this one)
> > > - page must be browsable and look "OK" with graphics off
> > > - code must comply to W3C standards
> > > - Visitor must not be forced upon a certain text size or screen size
(I
> > > hate "best viewed with" messages)  Specially the text resizing is not
easy
> > > if you want to maintain an look.
> > >
> > > All this will be poured in a forrest skin.  Long live this technology!
> > >
> > > I'm doing my best to get the code ready ASAP.
> > >
> > > Any comments or additions?
> > >
> > > Bert
> > >
>



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