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From "Ivelin Ivanov" <>
Subject Re: [LAYOUT] page.html created
Date Mon, 18 Mar 2002 13:42:35 GMT

I always liked the simple and fast behaviour of yahoo sites and similarly
the jakarta site.
Yes, there is no fancy stuff to "amaze" you, but it can't be any more
functional for me.

Every time in the past I've tried to do "desktop-ish" things with
HTML/JavaScript, it turned into a maintainace nightmare.
It's hard to expand the system without knowing well the navigation bahavior

So, please KISS.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Piroumian, Konstantin" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 2:40 AM
Subject: RE: [LAYOUT] page.html created

> From: Stefano Mazzocchi []
> "Piroumian, Konstantin" wrote:
> >
> > Here goes the final one with working index menu (all
> sections can be
> > opened/closed), icons are also in place. (File locations you know).
> Hmmm, but the chapters should be linkable to their index
> files, you know, to provide an introduction to the chapter.

Hm, didn't think of it...

> You could make the triangle icons behave like tree
> expand/contract... but the real question is, do we really
> want this behavior?

Yes, it's possible to make them behave like that.

> > A dream (¿ SM) came to me while working on this menu:
> > this menu reminded me a discussion about dynamic XML loading with
> > JavaScript and Cocoon. There was a question: is it possible
> to make a
> > menu like the one on MSDN site?
> No, please, I hate it! This is why I question it's
> functionality.... having the entire tree browsable *right
> there* all the time is not a plus, IMHO, is a minus! It
> creates a sense of mess and, besides, you can browse it only
> if you have a 1600x1200 pixel screen! (I have 1024x768 on my
> laptop and go figure how much i like that!)

It's not much different from a PDF file index and it can be also made as a
show/hide curtain, but I see your point.

> > There a topic child list is loaded when the user clicks on
> the topic
> > link. Such possibility would be very useful for optimizing the load
> > time of any complicated documentation index.
> Yes, it reduces load, but it is 'frame-like', it's not
> something embedded in the page and people have bad cognitive
> perceptions when parts of the page aren't refreshed.

Yes, that's true

> > It can be implemented like this:
> >  - page is loaded only with top-level topics
> >  - when user clicks on a chapter link a request (from a hidden
> > frame/iframe) is sent to Cocoon
> >  - Cocoon generates JavaScript string that contains HTML with the
> > topic list items
> >  - control frame (hidden frame/iframe) calls a JS function
> that writes
> > received HTML inside of the clicked element
> >
> > Of course, this can be implemented only in IE 4+ (don't know about
> > Netscape 6), cause it requires a possibility to change
> element's HTML
> > code by JavaScript.
> >
> > It would be much better to receive XML with the topic list, but it
> > requires XSLT transformation on the client side (btw, it's also
> > supported by IE and a built-in ActiveX component).
> No, please, let's KISS: when the user clicks on a link, it
> goes to that page and the first next tree is opened.

And the previous opened topic is closed. Sometimes one needs to switch
between topics and it'll be better to see them both at the same time.

> This doesn't require *any* dynamism and, IMO, greates smaller
> pages, easier to port them around and much better cognitive
> experience.

Yes, agree.

> This is, in fact, an example where DHTML creates more harm
> than good (nothing against your solution, Konstantin, just my
> personal impressions.

Ok, it was just a proposal.

> What do others think?

I would keep some dynamism where it makes no harm and yes, really, what do
others think?

> --
> Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
>                           able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

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