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From: "Stephane Beladaci (Flexengineer)" <adobeflexengineer@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 16:47:54 -0800
Message-ID: 
 <CALTUS4gEhac7hb-EqjcB2PhwjQXxpduxtb1CjMaYHzG6+pi2MQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: "The Player", a case for an independent Flash Player
To: dev@flex.apache.org
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This remind me the same situation on MacRumors.com. As more and more
people, on an Apple fan website mind you, started to get involved in the
discussion, the more moderators and operators were getting agitated. When
they started to shut me up, I started a poll asking who want Flash on iOS.
When the poll got to 75% yes, 35% no they banned me, deleted my account,
deleted every trace of my posts, and literrally tracked me down on new
accounts for week.

They made my point. I have screencapture of every post, every message,
every vote on the poll. It will look awesome as full width header on the
wordpress template of AppleTruth.com.

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 4:10 PM, <flex@dfguy.us> wrote:

> This thread doesn't really bother me at all. I like to hear interesting
> information on the subject and discuss openly possibilities, even if they
> end up requiring too much work. There's always this sort of shut up
> mentality, surrounding the Flash subject that I don't like. It's good
> though to use proper language and be constructive though in a way that
> actually has the potential to help.
>
> So maybe companies or even Adobe could pay more people to work on Flex an=
d
> update the codebase to work with newer versions of the runtime as another
> thread mentioned. I'm not sure if there's a proper way to advocate for
> that, but that's what I would do if I was them. I also think that legal
> action could be positive if there's really a case, which I think there
> would be. This may not help the list though besides getting info out to t=
he
> community.
>
> Otherwise I always thought that Apache was a good way to actively develop
> the framework in a more accessible fashion by Adobe itself as opposed to
> something totally unrelated. However I always liked Flash and it's
> rendering better than things in JS and the DOM in general so I never real=
ly
> liked that it was attacked to thoroughly and all that. I never felt the
> need to blame the player or Adobe for pushing for it, but was disappointe=
d
> when they changed stance on it under all that pressure etc. So in a lot o=
f
> ways I think that's most of the issue here is the desire for Adobe to do
> something more.
>
> On the same note I also like all of the JS work that's being done so it
> doesn't bother me that there are more features and cool things the learn
> and all of that. I will say though too that I always disliked the fact th=
at
> so many people seemed to think not for themselves but rather based on
> incorrect information given to them by Steve Jobs. It bothers me that the
> truth was not broadly understood about the technical details and so peopl=
e
> piled onto flash because Jobs told them too.
>
> Thank you choir! :)
>
> David
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Stephane Beladaci (Flexengineer)" <adobeflexengineer@gmail.com>
> To: dev@flex.apache.org
> Sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 4:07 PM
> Subject: Re: "The Player", a case for an independent Flash Player
>
> Ok let's step back and have a look at this. First of all, I walked in a b=
it
> too strong to begin with, that was on January 17th. I am not going to
> apologize again, or justify with the fact I am taking all the pressure
> everyone else bails out from, and without being head first I would not ha=
ve
> gotten through 5 years of it. It is my fight, which I picked, I will suck
> it up and keep going. So no F word, s and h an * and t, or other Frenc
> langual specialties.
>
> However, when I am being asked to make a point, it is a lost cause to try
> to stop me half way when things do not go the way part of the audience
> would like it to.
>
> From Erik, the very first message after my initial email:
>
> "Also, on a personal note: if you make statements like "HTML5 failed," I
> would ask you to provide references, or you risk being labelled a troll,
> I'm afraid. EdB"
>
> Then, from Erik again came what I sense to be the core of issue:
>
> "All kidding aside, whatever comes out of this initiative, it is clear
> that the effort involved will be huge. Also, as this only tangentially
> concerns Apache Flex, I don't think it can be a sub-project - keep in
> mind there are already 2 sub-projects devoted to making Apache Flex
> independent of the Flash Player: FlexJS and VF2JS.
>
> So, my suggestion is that Stephane sets up a Github project and starts
> getting together developers and other resources from that base. This
> list is not a soapbox where you can rant against the evil empires that
> supposedly ruined our favorite toy, nor is it a recruitment platform
> for other open source projects."
>
> So let me be clear, I do not care what Apache agenda for Flex is with JS,
> but someone would have to be delusional to think I will be sweaped away
> like this just because I am not carrying the water. I am a warrior, not a
> water carrier.
>
> That is all I have to say about it.
>
> -S
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 12:53 PM, H=C3=A9ctor A <neverbirth@gmail.com> wr=
ote:
>
> > Just a note: even if MS has released the source for most of the .NET
> > ecosystem, they are not accepting contributions for a lot (all?) of the
> > projects.
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 2:57 AM, Angelo Anolin <angelo.anolin@gmail.com=
>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > With most enterprise (MS on .NET, Google on Angular, Facebook on
> React),
> > I
> > > think it should just follow that Adobe perhaps start the process of
> > having
> > > Flash open sourced so that all possible enhancements and security
> patches
> > > it needs can be performed by a community that believes in its
> > capabilities
> > > - in media and enterprise.
> > >
> > > Funny as a moment ago, I was just watching some video about Facebook'=
s
> > > React framework and their mantra was - "Learn Once, Write Anywhere".
> > Wasn't
> > > this already the option offered by Flex/AS3 even before the boom of
> > > fragmented devices/OS? The only thing that separates with this native
> > > frameworks is that Flex/AS3 requires a closed Adobe plugin, whilst th=
e
> JS
> > > frameworks are open, but still dependent on what the browser could
> offer
> > in
> > > terms of compatibility and implementation.
> > >
> > > Nonetheless, I still believe and this will hold true that Flex is the
> > best
> > > platform to build enterprise, business-level application. 95% of
> > businesses
> > > won't care what technology stack an application was build, nor the
> > platform
> > > it is being delivered. If it performs the functionality desired and
> > solves
> > > real world business problems, then they are more likely to approve of
> > that
> > > project.
> > >
> > > I hope this project pushes through - to bring a new breathe of life f=
or
> > > Flex app development. The functionality offered by Flex out of the bo=
x
> is
> > > simply too good to be left out for consideration in the realms of
> > > enterprise software development.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Carlos Velasco <
> > > carlos.velasco.blanco@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think the flex framework and universe needs to pass a rebranding
> > > process
> > > > to separate itself from the Adobe products past and future destiny.=
 I
> > > mean,
> > > > it is no more an Adobe product, but a new one with its own
> lifecycle...
> > > So,
> > > > moving to a new brand would throw away every Adobe's bad inheritanc=
es
> > > from
> > > > the past.
> > > >
> > > > The product, in my opinion, should focus on covering what it was ma=
de
> > for
> > > > (and Adobe always failed to get the world to fully understand); wha=
t
> > is:
> > > > Heavy Enterprise Rich Internet Applications.
> > > >
> > > > I mean. JS is for web development and so it should be, but it
> becomes a
> > > > nightmare when used in complex applications. That is where FLEX is
> the
> > > best
> > > > technology, and so it should take its market.
> > > >
> > > > I also think that if the community is to be taken in a serious way,
> it
> > > > should refactor some other things:
> > > >
> > > > - Create an open source virtual machine maintained by the community=
.
> > > > (Please run away from the Player word at the name, it is not a
> serious
> > > > name), but depending on Adobe is the tomb way in the near future.
> > > >
> > > > - Expand the AS language to get improvements and a roadmap.
> > > >
> > > > - Forget about basic web features and be centered in the big
> companies
> > > > world.
> > > >
> > > > - Encourage web developers to adopt JS or others as their platform.
> > Focus
> > > > on enterprise developments where a big team is required to get the
> > goal.
> > > >
> > > > - Clean the Framework API and extend it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Flex was sold as the Web Technology for every project, so it got ma=
ny
> > > > enemies in the way, but Adobe failed defending the product. Now the
> new
> > > > Apache product has to find its place in the market, needs a lot of
> > > > reliability from big companies, and having the Adobe's past so
> present
> > is
> > > > resting so much to the technology's future.
> > > >
> > > > Do you agree?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2015-02-23 17:04 GMT-03:00 Stephane Beladaci <
> > > adobeflexengineer@gmail.com
> > > > >:
> > > >
> > > > > David, your suggested approach is actually being attempted by a
> > client
> > > > > of mine, assuming I understand it correctly. I would be intereste=
d
> in
> > > > > getting involved and have a look at what you did so far. At this
> > point
> > > > > I think the discussion is going to have to lead to a few labs
> > > > > experiments, I am setting up some infrastructure for source code
> > > > > management, code review, and community management. Maybe your
> > approach
> > > > > is a good candidate for one of those labs. Feel free to contact m=
e
> > > > > directly for details, we will then circle back to the mailing lis=
t
> > > > > with relevant info or topic open to discussion, that way we don't
> > > > > saturate the conversation.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 7:37 PM,  <flex@dfguy.us> wrote:
> > > > > > I really think Stephane makes some great points. It's a good id=
ea
> > > > though
> > > > > to keep things constructive and on topic in regards to Flex too a=
s
> > Erik
> > > > > mentioned.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > While work on a different player seems to have been something
> > > actively
> > > > > tried a few times, what I've been pondering is possibly trying to
> > cross
> > > > > compile one of the browser sources to as3. That way we could
> leverage
> > > all
> > > > > of the good things about the web standards within a flex or air
> app.
> > > Some
> > > > > of the built in HTML views have a lot of limitations so this migh=
t
> > > allow
> > > > > for reusing a lit of the existing code out there, or combining
> > project
> > > > > assets into a single codebase.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've done some initial work on it but don't have anything
> completed
> > > as
> > > > > of yet.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > David
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Stephane Beladaci <adobeflexengineer@gmail.com>
> > > > > > To: dev <dev@flex.apache.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 1:24 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: "The Player", a case for an independent Flash Play=
er
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I understand the possible distraction from the objective of the
> > > > > > mailing list, however it is concentrated on a single message
> thread
> > > > > > that anyone can easily ignore. It is also important to identify
> the
> > > > > > concerns and criticism from the community in order to define th=
e
> > > right
> > > > > > path for an alternative player in an attempt to bridge the gap
> > > between
> > > > > > what Adobe seems incapable of accomplishing, what the browser w=
ar
> > > > > > render nearly impossible to accomplish, what the Jobs' Apple
> tries
> > to
> > > > > > kill, and what the new Apple makes possible.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You simply cannot consider the work, and future of Flex
> developers
> > > > > > without to have a holistic approach, analysis and understanding
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > business, corporate and technological of the developer
> communities,
> > > > > > browsers landscape, and app marketplaces.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 7:13 PM, Erik de Bruin <
> erik@ixsoftware.nl
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >> This discussion was intended to start the development of a Fla=
sh
> > > > > >> Player alternative, and as such got a preliminary pass on bein=
g
> OT
> > > for
> > > > > >> this list.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I think it has ended up being just a "bash the Player, Adobe,
> > Apple
> > > > > >> and all let's include all browser vendors for good measure"
> > thread,
> > > so
> > > > > >> I, again, respectfully ask that it is continued on another
> forum.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> This list is the dev list for the Apache Flex project, all
> > > discussion
> > > > > >> on it should at least be tangentially related to that topic.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> EdB
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 7:32 PM, Stephane Beladaci
> > > > > >> <adobeflexengineer@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >>> The "proprietary" tiny bit of the player, which is a fraction
> of
> > > the
> > > > > >>> whole Flash ecosystem mostly open source, is precisely what
> made
> > > it a
> > > > > >>> success and what made JS a failure. JS implementation is left
> to
> > > the
> > > > > >>> browser, and you can be sure they will use that last word to
> > screw
> > > > > >>> each other, block each other, and make sure the browser never
> > > compete
> > > > > >>> with their app store. We have seen it over and over, bugs
> marked
> > by
> > > > > >>> Apple "no to be fixed" by executive order to refrain Facebook
> > from
> > > > > >>> building its HTML5 game platform codename "spartan"; H264
> yanked
> > by
> > > > > >>> Google to block Apple and MS. Safari on iOS 7 called by HTML5
> > > expert
> > > > > >>> "the buggiest mobile Safari ever".
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Meanwhile Adobe keep adding features and move forward with no
> > > block,
> > > > > >>> no endless discussions and no matter the constant complaining
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > >>> developers community never happy with what we got, the player
> and
> > > AIR
> > > > > >>> are still half to full decade ahead of any <whatever>.JS
> > technology
> > > > > >>> with decent browser penetration.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> It is because of the proprietary piece of the Flash player th=
at
> > the
> > > > > >>> same hypocrite browser vendors cannot mess with it, and Apple
> had
> > > to
> > > > > >>> ban it entirely to avoid having the Flash Platform take over
> its
> > > > > >>> AppStore with Flash 9, AS3, Flex and AIR. Good news is, that
> ban
> > > > > >>> exposed Apple much more than merely messing with JS
> > implementation,
> > > > > >>> and I believe there is an antitrust class action lawsuit that
> can
> > > be
> > > > > >>> pushed by the Flash developer community. If I successfully le=
ad
> > > this
> > > > > >>> to court, the discovery process might expose the whole nasty
> > > Silicon
> > > > > >>> Valley browser war.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> As far as security is concerned, my guess is that it is all a
> > > > question
> > > > > >>> of popularity, when every page on the web will contain HTML5
> ads
> > > with
> > > > > >>> JS pushed to the limit as replacement for Flash, you will see
> JS
> > > > > >>> security risk rise to the sky. It already started, most
> security
> > > > > >>> reports warn of the HTML5 security risk.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 3:49 PM,  <flex@dfguy.us> wrote:
> > > > > >>>> That's probably true but what I'm wondering though is does
> this
> > > > > actually help right? So if Mozilla is then maintaining the code
> then
> > > it's
> > > > > dependent on them to fix any security flaws in terms of their own
> > > release
> > > > > cycle for fixes. Plus the ability of the implementation is again
> > > > dependent
> > > > > on whatever capabilities exist in the browser as the runtime like
> you
> > > > > mentioned.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> So what is occurring to me is that most likely media like th=
at
> > > > outlet
> > > > > just don't like the idea of a "proprietary" runtime that's
> supported
> > > and
> > > > > maintained by a company in general, so it's sort of cool to promo=
te
> > an
> > > > > implementation by another company that's not deemed to be as
> > > proprietary
> > > > > like Mozilla. It's sort of an ideological argument I think that's
> > > really
> > > > at
> > > > > the root of all this stuff. I think there have been a bunch of sw=
f
> > > > players
> > > > > out there for years right? But if this could allow all of that
> > content
> > > to
> > > > > be played on iPads or etc then I'm sure it would help out.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> No one seems to care about all the other proprietary runtime=
s
> > out
> > > > > there, or Apple's closed environment, or Android or anything else
> > being
> > > > > closed in varying forms, or that whole Mozilla DRM plugin or etc.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> David
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >>>> From: Tom Chiverton <tc@extravision.com>
> > > > > >>>> To: dev@flex.apache.org
> > > > > >>>> Sent: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 9:23 AM
> > > > > >>>> Subject: Re: "The Player", a case for an independent Flash
> > Player
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> I think The Register's angle is the Adobe implementation of
> the
> > > > Flash
> > > > > >>>> runtime is bad and full of security issues.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> In theory Shumay runs in the JavaScript sandbox, so inherits
> all
> > > the
> > > > > >>>> protections and 'many eyes' of previous work on securing it.
> > > > > >>>> When was the last time there was a off-by-one arbitrary code
> > > > execution
> > > > > >>>> issue in a major JavaScript implementation ?
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Tom
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> --
> > > > > >> Ix Multimedia Software
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> > > > > >> 3521 VB Utrecht
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> T. 06-51952295
> > > > > >> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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