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From: OmPrakash Muppirala <bigosmallm@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:32:03 -0800
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 <CACK5iZew09KPHOnz8RXgYALt=E_SH1x+AQt3a5_=Nsazy__BkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Corporate influence on Apache Flex (or, the lack of)
To: "dev@flex.apache.org" <dev@flex.apache.org>
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Jesse,

You are indeed raising very valid questions.  I am moving this to a
separate thread so we don't continue to pollute that other vote thread.

The question you are raising is something that we have assumed to have been
answered and put to rest.  So, I will try to respond to it from your
perspective who may not have been following this project closely.
Responses inline:

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Jesse Nicholson <ascensionsystems@gmail.com
> wrote:

> I'll stop emailing on this thread, my apologize to people for the unrelated
> messages that have come through.
>
> On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Jesse Nicholson <
> ascensionsystems@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > My intention wasn't to hurt anyone. As a grown up, I'm open to
> > conversations where subject matter isn't all sunshine and lolipops
> without
> > taking it personally. :) I was just giving my first impressions, which I
> > think were legitimate since 90% of the messages coming in so far was
> > arguing over the release process and the release manager heralding the
> end
> > of the universe if we all carry on against his advice.
> >
> > Anyway yes I do have genuine concerns about corporate independence. Your
> > profile says that you work for Adobe, right? I don't see how that in
> itself
> > doesn't wrap up "corporate independence" neatly and throw it out the
> window
> > and down the mountain side, with respect.
>

Almost every volunteer at Apache works for a corporate entity in their
'real' life.  How else are the volunteers going to make money?  You are
jumping from being employed with company A to company A having corporate
influence over an open source project.

True, there are 'open source' entities that are completely controlled by
corporations.  Ex. Joyent - Node.js, Google - Chromium/AngularJS, etc.,
Apple - Webkit, etc.  But Apache projects are all controlled by the Apache
Software Foundation, which is an entity on its own.  There is no evidence
that any corporate entity has influence on Apache Flex.  Yes, not even
Adobe.


> The only target (until a mature
> > flex-js) is a closed source platform owned by your employer.
>

Again, this is not unique to Apache Flex.  There are numerous (Apache and
non-Apache) open source projects that depend on the Java(TM) runtime which
is tightly controlled by Oracle Corporation.  Same goes with projects like
Node.js which depends on the V8 engine, again tightly controlled by Google.


> But even then,
> > the only complete toolset for authoring against this framework is owned
> and
> > marketed as a commercial product by your employer.
>

I think you are talking about Adobe Flash Builder.  That is not the only
complete toolset for developing Apache Flex apps.  You have Jetbrains
IntelliJ IDEA, Powerflasher FDT, FlashDevelop, Oracle Netbeans, etc. which
support Apache Flex to varying degrees.


> The website addresses
> > this by kindly suggesting to command line everything.
>

There are several wiki pages that describe how to use Apache Flex various
different IDEs.  They are all summarized on our website, here [1]


> Well, we all know
> > that people who used flex before are stuck with Adobe Flex IDE dependent
> > project files, so yeah.
>

Not sure what you mean.  Please clarify?


> Source code headers don't make copyright claims but
> > rather express that the software is licensed to the apache software
> > foundation with permission to extend that license (apache license) to end
> > users.
>

Yes, because the software was originally developed by Adobe.  Nothing we do
today can change that fact.  The fact that Adobe (graciously) gave away
their software to us does not mean that they give up the right to use it to
develop anything else in the future.  The same would be true for you and
me.  If you develop a software and make it open source, you are not
necessarily giving away your ownership of the software.  You are only
making it infinitely easy for others to take your work and use/improve it.


> So yes sir, I have genuine, real questions about how on earth apache
> > could possibly be running this project independent of adobe systems
> > incorporated given everything I've mentioned above.
>

I hope the above answers should alleviate your concerns.  If not, please
ask more questions.  Corporate independence is a very important aspect of
Apache Flex (insert any other project here) and we want to make sure that
everyone understands this.

Thanks,
Om

P.S.  I work for IBM and not Adobe :-)

[1] http://flex.apache.org/doc-getstarted.html


>
> > Thanks. :)
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 5:25 PM, Jesse Nicholson
> >> <ascensionsystems@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > ...many of the leads here seem to double as adobe
> >> > employees... which makes me feel that this is still very heavily
> >> controlled
> >> > and owned by adobe for their own corporate interests....
> >>
> >> I suppose you did not realize how that kind of statement is received
> >> by people who spend lots of energy to run this foundation in a way
> >> that keeps our projects independent from corporate influences, as well
> >> as by people who take great care of contributing to these projects in
> >> a way that implements this independence.
> >>
> >> As someone who's active on all sides of this, I am doubly hurt ;-)
> >>
> >> But of course if you have actual concerns about corporate
> >> independence, feel free to report them to this PMC or to a trusted
> >> Apache Foundation Member or Director.
> >>
> >> Anyway...welcome! And I'd recommend that you stay around for a bit
> >> longer. IMO this project is currently in a crisis but there's positive
> >> signs in the last few days that the atmosphere should get much better
> >> soon!
> >>
> >> -Bertrand
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jesse Nicholson
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Jesse Nicholson
>

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