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From Jesse Nicholson <ascensionsyst...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Let's talk about Flex 5
Date Tue, 09 Dec 2014 21:23:17 GMT
With all due respect Gary, I just finished making a project management
application for a client that is pure HTML/JS and runs on all browsers. The
application looks like the latest version of office, that is, it looks like
a clean, modern and power desktop application, and functions like one, in
pure HTML/JS. Has a full blown chat server and client (again, pure JS), etc
so on and so forth. People that still believe the flash VM can do things
that HTML/JS can't are out of touch (again, not trying to be offensive). As
far as animation/games etc, just look at projects like pixijs[1], or away3D
typescript (now awayJS)[2].

I also disagree that the value of flex "is an extension of Flash". I
believe that's actually it's curse. Whatever the reasons are don't matter:
flash is viewed by the public as the past, with pure HTML/JS being the
future. That is the global mentality, and we're not going to change it.
Absolutely everyone is focusing on app/UI frameworks written to target pure
JS/HTML. Look at Joa Ebert, probably flash's most brilliant user and
non-adobe evangelist, abandoned flash very publicly and angrily years ago,
and is developing, like everyone else, pure JS/HTML app frameworks.

I agree that FlexJS is probably where the "future" focus should be because
indeed, flex is a powerful UI framework and being able to target JS would
put this project at least high up there on the list of tools to use for
"future proof" development.

[1]http://www.pixijs.com/
[2]http://typescript.away3d.com/


On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 4:05 PM, Gary Yang <flashflexpro@gmail.com> wrote:

> I do not think it is possible to implement even near features to current
> Flash based Flex, There is a FlexJS project there, let the developers tell
> their story,
>
> What is Flex? Why people use it?
>
> People use Flex when working on real complex UI that CAN NOT BE implemented
> with Javascript!
> The value of Flex is an extension of Flash, there are too many Javascript
> based frameworks already!
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 4:02 PM, Nicholas Kwiatkowski <nicholas@spoon.as>
> wrote:
>
> > Just to be clear -- there is no AS4.  Adobe proposed the standard and
> > started some work on it and then didn't proceed with it any further.
> >
> > I don't think we need to set a goal of a complete re-write to read a 5.0
> > milestone.  I think working on some of the bigger concepts of decoupling
> > some of the components to make them ready or at least more portable to
> > FlexJS is a goal we can set.  Setting the bar too high I think will make
> it
> > unattainable.
> >
> > -Nick
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 3:43 PM, <flex@dfguy.us> wrote:
> >
> > > I think it's a touchy subject. The flash player and adobe always seem
> to
> > > get a bunch of flack, often unlike most other similar platforms. This
> > whole
> > > "proprietary" phrase is usually used as some sort of bludgeon meaning
> > > intrinsically bad; which it obviously is not. But it's a difficult
> > > situation though like mentioned where you have to depend on a company
> for
> > > support and there's a lot of uncertainty there.
> > >
> > > So either rewrite the platform to use a new AS4 or rewrite to use a
> > > different runtime like just JavaScript in the browser, you're still
> > doing a
> > > lot of rewriting. Then, the browser isn't exactly a runtime in terms of
> > > being interpretive as opposed to precompiled. So if you target the
> > browser
> > > you still have to figure out some "third party" framework for mobile
> > > deployment in app form right?
> > >
> > > What I'd like to see is the ability to something like JavaScript as an
> > > option but then to actually continue to have a super charged runtime to
> > > target that's actually supported to the fullest. I don't know if it's
> > > really Adobe's fault regarding the plight of flash player or if it
> really
> > > just boils down to outside forces screwing things up in one way or
> > another.
> > >
> > > If flex became a JavaScript only framework for targeting would that
> > > actually help it get used more, or would there be even more
> competition.
> > I
> > > think what might be better would to be to have a strong runtime
> supported
> > > by a "proprietary" company properly, and then also enable to use of
> open
> > > standards, html5, JavaScript etc within the framework itself so that
> you
> > > could reuse a lot of the web standards code that's out there.
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jesse Nicholson <ascensionsystems@gmail.com>
> > > To: dev@flex.apache.org
> > > Sent: Tue, 09 Dec 2014 1:44 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Let's talk about Flex 5
> > >
> > > My 2 cents is that the project should be focusing on moving away from a
> > > third-party, proprietary and frankly dead platform. I'm also not sure
> > what
> > > actionscript 4 has to do with anything, it's not like there will be a
> > > ground-up rewrite of the entire project to port it to a new language.
> > Even
> > > a mass, automated conversion (were it possible) would be, in purpose,
> > > purely for the benefit of yet again, maintaining compatability with a
> > > third-party, proprietary platform. In fact it would be worse than that,
> > it
> > > would bind the project specifically to that third-party, closed source
> > > target runtime. It's discussions like this that are at the root of the
> > > previous concerns I've raised which can be summarized as such: is flex
> > it's
> > > own product, or is everyone just working for adobe.
> > >
> > > I know it's a lot of work, but I really think we need to replace AIR
> and
> > > Flash Player as the target for this project. Doing so would create a
> > truly
> > > standalone, apache driven product future-proof, omni-platform
> application
> > > development. I didn't want to really get into this discussion yet but,
> > > since it came up...
> > >
> > > As for the question of AIR on iOS, Adobe created a LLVM frontend to
> > convert
> > > actionscript to LLVM-IR, which adds all of the benefits of LLVM for
> > > optimization, then emits ARM. The runtime (which is probably C++
> source,
> > > since the entire Tamarin engine is C++) is precompiled already to AMR
> > libs,
> > > linkin is done, etc etc, lots of proprietary magic and you've got an
> > final,
> > > native assembly. This is called AOT or ahead of time compilation,
> rather
> > > than using JIT (as the flash player uses) in order to comply with
> > anti-jit
> > > license terms of IOS development.
> > >
> > > The AVM2 is (mostly) open source under the Mozilla Public License, but
> > has
> > > recently gone missing from mozillas mercurial repos. It's tough to
> track
> > > down, but you can still find "tamarin-redux" and get a zip of the
> source
> > > tree. I believe the AOT compiler source code is present as well.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 2:07 PM, Gary Yang <flashflexpro@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > just to bring this up...
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Gary Yang <flashflexpro@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Java Spring is a very good example for framework evolving, for
> Flex,
> > I
> > > > > think it is the similar situation:
> > > > >
> > > > > The key function is
> > > > > 1) Mxml
> > > > > 2)Binding
> > > > > 3)Data structure such as IList implementations
> > > > >
> > > > > on top of Mxml/Binding/Data is 1) UIComponent 2) Skinning 3)network
> > > > > components
> > > > >
> > > > > and then  osmf, reporting, text ....
> > > > >
> > > > > I think from Flex5, we should modularize these into different kinds
> > of
> > > > > projects:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) Flex data, to provide an infrastructure for 1) mxml -> as
> > > generation,
> > > > > 2) reactive programming(Binding); 3) related data structures;
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) Based on Flex data, Flex UI, to provide the basic UI
> > implementation(
> > > > in
> > > > > Flex4 skinning way ), could be multi projects.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3) Based on Flex data, Network/Native components, http, websocket
> and
> > > > peer
> > > > > to peer, native devices communications.
> > > > >
> > > > > and then projects that specified in different fields: video, text,
> > > > > reporting ....
> > > > >
> > > > > I see Flex as a tool sets to solve complex user interface, so Flash
> > > > player
> > > > > is the only way to work in desktop web, so the language has to
> > express
> > > at
> > > > > least as much as AS3, so if possible, using Java as a language will
> > be
> > > > > enough to downgrade into most other languages.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just a little thought.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Gary
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 8:06 AM, <flex@dfguy.us> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Right, it could be written in it and not cross compiled. It could
> be
> > > > that
> > > > >> the project is what get cross compiled and then packaged with
the
> > > > runtime.
> > > > >> I think though that this could be a good opportunity to improve
> the
> > > > runtime
> > > > >> in general as was previously talked about with the AS4 plans
but I
> > > guess
> > > > >> we'll have to wait and continue to ask Adobe to work on it.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> David
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> From: Harbs <harbs.lists@gmail.com>
> > > > >> To: dev@flex.apache.org
> > > > >> Sent: Thu, 05 Jun 2014 6:56 AM
> > > > >> Subject: Re: Let's talk about Flex 5
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I don’t think that’s correct. Unless I’m mistaken, the
AIR iOS
> > runtime
> > > > is
> > > > >> written in Objective C from the get-go. (Although it might be
> > written
> > > in
> > > > >> C++. Dunno…)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Whether or not it makes sense to rewrite the AIR iOS runtime
in
> > Swift
> > > is
> > > > >> an entirely different question — which probably only the engineers
> > at
> > > > Adobe
> > > > >> could really answer…
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Jun 5, 2014, at 2:51 PM, flex@dfguy.us wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > My understanding is that the entire runtime gets cross compiled
> > into
> > > > >> objective c. So Adobe would have to rewrite this to use swift,
> but I
> > > > think
> > > > >> the same process would basically be used. It's possible though
> that
> > > > swift
> > > > >> could enable additional features. The limitation on loading
> compiled
> > > > byte
> > > > >> code is purely just a licensing and not a technical limitation
> that
> > > > imposed
> > > > >> by Apple.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > David
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> > From: Harbs <harbs.lists@gmail.com>
> > > > >> > To: dev@flex.apache.org
> > > > >> > Sent: Thu, 05 Jun 2014 1:17 AM
> > > > >> > Subject: Re: Let's talk about Flex 5
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Really? The only way I know of outputting ActionScript for
iOS
> is
> > > > using
> > > > >> AIR for iOS which is just a swf with an embedded runtime.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Jun 5, 2014, at 4:26 AM, flex@dfguy.us wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >> There's already the ability to cross compile to objective
c for
> > iOS
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jesse Nicholson
> > >
> >
>



-- 
Jesse Nicholson

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