From user-return-672-archive-asf-public=cust-asf.ponee.io@fineract.apache.org Sun Oct 14 14:10:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Delivered-To: archive-asf-public@cust-asf.ponee.io Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by mx-eu-01.ponee.io (Postfix) with SMTP id 00A2F180670 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2018 14:10:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 28336 invoked by uid 500); 14 Oct 2018 12:10:05 -0000 Mailing-List: contact user-help@fineract.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: user@fineract.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list user@fineract.apache.org Received: (qmail 27628 invoked by uid 99); 14 Oct 2018 12:10:05 -0000 Received: from mail-relay.apache.org (HELO mailrelay1-lw-us.apache.org) (207.244.88.152) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Sun, 14 Oct 2018 12:10:05 +0000 Received: from mail-ed1-f50.google.com (mail-ed1-f50.google.com [209.85.208.50]) by mailrelay1-lw-us.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at mailrelay1-lw-us.apache.org) with ESMTPSA id 46DD0146F; Sun, 14 Oct 2018 12:10:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ed1-f50.google.com with SMTP id x31-v6so15289068edd.8; Sun, 14 Oct 2018 05:10:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfojsvFeW2qssFrqYYLz5C8GL4QMzbusFB4NAS3Je/bfr1Lbq54DR nLQiI5eng+O6bI4NdKj00zANLnWk61TD/IwgOEI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV63p7hAmfB7mfDTnnYmBGL/bwRtMwceEXU1c/R2Htiq6aDQYjCPSyYiHUldymPjZz5eyHIo0+KVLyot+gSRe9EY= X-Received: by 2002:a50:9043:: with SMTP id z3-v6mr18845974edz.216.1539519003153; Sun, 14 Oct 2018 05:10:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Myrle Krantz Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 14:09:51 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Dev vs User Mailing Lists To: dev Cc: dev@community.apache.org, javier@sero.uy, Mifos software development , mifos-users , user Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey all, We already have a hipchat channel: https://apache.hipchat.com/chat/room/466= 1218 I will not go to a WhatsApp group for Fineract for the following reasons: * Splitting my communications across 9+ communication applications has made it near impossible for me to track all of the questions asked of me. I'm dropping balls simply because I forget which direction they are thrown at me from. * WhatsApp requires those who use it to upload all of their contacts to the WhatsApp servers. I will not place this requirement on people who wish to communicate with me about Fineract. * Although I do have WhatsApp installed, the app does not offer a sufficiently finely granular control over notifications for my purposes. Messages to muted groups are still counted in the new message count on the "badge notifications". This makes it impossible for me to distinguish between urgent messages and non-urgent messages, and has lead me to remove WhatsApp's permissions to send me any notifications at all. * It is important to me to concentrate on one person to communicate with at a time, and WhatsApp and many other instant communication applications do not make appropriate use of my attention. They make me less effective at most things that I want to do by constantly interrupting me. I incur a high attention switching cost in that environment, and also risk addiction to that little dopamine kick that every communication gives you. * Mark T. is right: a WhatsApp group is not archived on Apache infrastructure. I can't create a link to messages there when explain the history of a decision. Best Regards, Myrle On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 1:35 PM Mark Thomas wrote: > > Repeating (with minor edits for this context) what I have said on > similar topics on other threads: > > I don't think a WhatsApp group is a good idea. > > The criteria that the ASF looks for in communication > channels used by projects are (in no particular order): > > - open to all > - asynchronous > - available off-line > - full history > - searchable > - archived on ASF controlled systems > - low bandwidth / minimal system requirements > > E-mail may seem a little 'old school' at times but it is one of the few > technologies that meets all of the above. Which is why most of our > systems are configured to echo stuff back to the relevant mailing list. > > These days I'm used to an always on internet connections with speeds in > the 10s of megabits where I don't need to worry about the cost (even > when I am out and about) but it is worth remembering that not everyone > is in that position. It wasn't really that long ago that I could > sometimes be found working on Apache projects via a 9600 bits per second > dial-up connection that I paid for by the second. It was perfectly > possible for me to follow what was going on by connecting for a few > minutes every couple of hours, syncing my email, making a few commits if > I had anything to commit and then disconnecting and continuing to work > off-line. If a large proportion of communication had happened via a > WhatsApp like interface there is no way I would have been able to follow > the project. > > I accept that there are times were using a 'real-time' communication > channel is more efficient. However, it excludes every member of the > community that isn't participating in that channel at that point in > time. The default position at the ASF is that it is better for > communication to be a little less efficient for a few in order for the > entire community to participate. > > Cheers, > > Mark > > > On 13/10/18 17:23, Javier Borkenztain wrote: > > Hi all, +1 on one single list with tags (there are at least 6 lists ) > > > > For the non-technical contributors like me, that most of my contributio= n to > > the community happens "out of the list", It will be useful to have only= one > > place of reference. > > > > Also, I think we need a Whatsapp group, I am a member of several Whatsa= pp > > groups on Bitcoin and Blockchain, and they are much more efficient and = fast > > to communicate non-technical issues, I've created the group, you can jo= in > > it here: https://chat.whatsapp.com/BVsYOq5eOxqLrvbWnQ3Dck > > > > I really enjoyed the presentation > > J= ames > > Dailey shared a couple of months ago, the message that we are on the "O= pen > > Source Age" is as powerful and meaningful as ever. > > > > More and more Fintechs, Financial Institutions and Banks are joining ou= r > > community and they are our partners and community members, as we grow, = we > > need to welcome them, I here propose we can announce each new partner t= hat > > joins our global community, I think Whatsapp group is great for that an= d > > the community to grow. > > > > We are changing an entire industry as a community because the community > > outperforms the individuals. > > > > Let's keep rocking!! > > Javier > > > > El mi=C3=A9., 10 oct. 2018 a las 13:00, Ed Cable () = escribi=C3=B3: > > > >> Reading over the escalation guide and the advice it gave on directing > >> appropriate issues/matters to the respective mailing lists, it got me > >> thinking about our Fineract Dev and Fineract User lists. > >> > >> We are always trying to be inclusive especially around awarding merit = or > >> committership in valuing non-technical contributions to the project. I= n > >> that same spirit, I worry we sometimes might be leaving out non-techni= cal > >> members of the community who might only be subscribed to the user list= when > >> we treat dev as the primary list for all communications (community-rel= ated, > >> etc whether they're technical or not). > >> > >> I know we don't want to clutter the mailing lists and we don't want to > >> cross-post everything across both lists but what do ewe think are some= ways > >> to address this? > >> > >> One possible option is just to consolidate the lists into dev but I do= n't > >> think that is good long-term because as community grows we will have > >> distinct technical vs. functional/design conversations happening. > >> > >> I know that user list is small but that might be a product of the fact= that > >> we direct everyone to sign up for dev because most conversations happe= n on > >> dev > >> > >> Should everyone just operate under the norm that dev is the primary li= st > >> and any public community-related matter or announcement will come thro= ugh > >> there and that everyone should be subscribed to that list to not miss = any > >> key information? > >> > >> Or should we just operate in the fashion of cross-posting to both list= s if > >> it's relevant to both audiences - that requires extra effort and ensur= es > >> everybody receives the message but then it does dilute the discussion = as > >> input given on @user wouldn't be seen by @Dev > >> > >> CC'ing ComDev too because they probably have some good suggestions bas= ed on > >> on other projects. However our community might be distinct in that we = have > >> a larger user-facing community than most more > >> technical/infrastructure-oriented Apache projects. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Ed > >> > >> ---------- Forwarded message --------- > >> From: Myrle Krantz > >> Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:41 PM > >> Subject: Escalation guide for project issues > >> To: dev > >> > >> > >> Hey all, > >> > >> An escalation guide for Apache issues was just posted on > >> dev@community.apache.org. I wanted to make sure our community was > >> aware of this as well: > >> > >> https://www.apache.org/board/escalation > >> > >> In general, I invite you to discuss problems you see with the Fineract > >> project. Discussion should be done openly, on the > >> dev@fineract.apache.org list, or, in some cases, > >> private@fineract.apache.org. Addressing problems early and openly > >> will keep most problems from becoming too large to handle. > >> > >> Best Regards, > >> Myrle > >> Committer, Apache Fineract > >> > >> > >> -- > >> *Ed Cable* > >> President/CEO, Mifos Initiative > >> edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649 > >> > >> *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org > >> > >> > > >